Lunar Army discussions

[Martin Helsdon]

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As someone relatively new to the age-old shield push of canon, this exchange is really useful to me for raising questions of the challenges Gloranthan military magic needs to overcome and the divergent solutions various regimental patrons provide. Some get sunspears, others get logistics, some get a combination of combat and headquarters magic. So thanks guys!

Another major factor is going to be the availability of healing, as magical healing will save the lives of soldiers that would almost certainly have died in Bronze/Iron Age warfare.

But the biggest difference is that a Gloranthan army is going to have specialist units of little innate mundane military value, but their presence is going to strengthen and magnify the ability of other units, and their absence would be very detrimental. A Gloranthan army doesn’t just set up a battleline but engages in ritual combat that has a major impact on its effectiveness.

Add in Heroes and the whole nature of warfare becomes different, and you don’t see anything vaguely similar in terrestrial warfare unless you consider the impact of the combat between champions on morale prior to the main battle in, say, Mesoamerican warfare. You would have to look to mythological combat to see anything remotely similar – the Iliad, where Achilles is apparently killed when Patroclus wears his armor, and effect of the apparent death of their Hero upon the Hellenes.

[Daniel McLaughlin]

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Quote from Martin Helsdon on September 20, 2013, 21:14

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OK. You clearly have strong views on this and you are certainly allowed to have them. You think the Lunar Army is more like a Bronze Age army? Fair enough. It needs more chariots then and a lot less cavalry,

I simply consider the size of Bronze Age and Iron Age armies in the historical sources to be significantly inflated above their actual operational size.

Throughout history, up until almost the modern era, armies numbered in the tens of thousands were very rare, simply because away from controlled territory there wasn’t the logistical infrastructure to support them. The only way in which they could exist was either to campaign where supplies could either be delivered in bulk (by sea or by convenient rivers) or be obtained by seizing the existing infrastructure and/or stripping the land of supplies (and there’s a serious limit for how long or how often that can be done). A large Iron Age army could devastate a region simply by passing through, without actual intentional destruction. And such an army had to keep moving because of the impact of poor sanitation – if it didn’t then it would suffer attrition through disease.

Now sanitation may not be a factor in Gloranthan warfare, if you have priests who can protect the force from the machinations of Mallia, but supply of food, fodder and water will be a factor.

Even in the period you cite, in 9th century Byzantium, an army division, the turma, was based on much smaller units, the banda, which could differ in size between three or four hundred men, and less than two hundred. The actual size of armies is thus subject to vague estimates, and the reality probably tended, save in the imperial heartland, towards the smaller instead of the greater size.

Regarding the Lunar Army: given the very different technological background of Gloranthan armies and terrestrial ones, it’s difficult to compare the two in terms of military technology. The big armies of the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age of our world’s Near East relied upon chariots because of the availability of suitable horses; they weren’t right next to the territory of steppes nomads – though the incursions of the Cimmerians and Scythians certainly had an impact, and the eventual arrival of the Medes and Persians sealed the fate of the Assyrians/Babylonians. It isn’t an exact correspondence, though I admit I tend to view the Pelorians as closer to Assyria/Babylonia than, say, Greece or Rome.

As for numbers the those for bronze age armies that I know are pretty vague. The Egyptian at Kadesh were supposed to have about 2000 chariots and 20 000 infantry for a total of around 28 000 men assuming each chariot has a driver, an archer, a chariot runner and a groom. The Hittites 3500 chariots and 37 000 infantry (or 17 000 if you don’t believe the hieroglyph says 10 0000 in each case). That’s the best documented battle we have from the bronze age! I suppose you could imagine that the Homer means the Achaens to have about 30 000 men at Troy (1000 trikonters would carry about this many).

[Martin Helsdon]

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As for numbers the those for bronze age armies that I know are pretty vague. The Egyptian at Kadesh were supposed to have about 2000 chariots and 20 000 infantry for a total of around 28 000 men assuming each chariot has a driver, an archer, a chariot runner and a groom. The Hittites 3500 chariots and 37 000 infantry (or 17 000 if you don’t believe the hieroglyph says 10 0000 in each case). That’s the best documented battle we have from the bronze age!

Personally, I’d be very wary of using the propaganda of Ramesses II as a source, given the spin he gave the outcome. Sadly the Hittite tablets from Hattusa which mention the battle don’t describe the forces involved. As Ramesses claimed a victory whilst subsequent Egyptian influence in the region went into an abrupt decline, his documentation is at best highly suspect.

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I suppose you could imagine that the Homer means the Achaens to have about 30 000 men at Troy (1000 trikonters would carry about this many).

Whilst there certainly were conflicts at Troy, the Iliad seems to be a distorted memory of conflict between the Achaeans and the Hittites and their vassal states in western Asia Minor: Wilusa was possibly Troy VII, and it was a city of Assuwa (from which we probably derive Asia) but attempting to map the Iliad onto the history of the region is fraught. The Catalogue of Ships might be a memory of a Bronze Age period list, but it might be anachronistic. As the area of contention in Assuwa/Arzawa was considerably larger than the Troad if the Catalogue is valid then it records the forces of a conflict in a much wider theater than just one city.

Now if the various versions of the Argrath Saga are taken as being similar memories of the wars between the Lunar Empire and Sartar, it certainly makes me wonder just how much of what we generally take as the future history of the Hero Wars is actually propaganda. 😮

Certainly, there’s (roughly) just as much time between the time of Homer and the Trojan War, and if Homer’s epic only very approximately maps onto the realities of geopolitics in the region… maybe the Hero Wars might deviate significantly from canon… After the Bronze Age collapse the Greeks also had their Illiteracy Era!

Hail Harshax!

[Daniel McLaughlin]

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Quote from Erick Eckberg on September 20, 2013, 19:46
Once again, Jeff; you seem to be categorizing these units nicely into a format. Do you have in mind some sort of large scale battle rules? The old wargamer in me is curious. Something on a unit-level? I am toying with some rules; pretty standard stuff but with the inclusion of powerful Rune-based magic (such as that ascribed to the Beryl Phalanx or the Lunar Army as a whole). I know it goes against the grain of Heroquest, and I have checked out the Warhamster rules set forth in TotRM #12, but…. it would be fun to fight it out at Dwernapple!

We’ve done wargames set in Glorantha using a few different systems ourselves – Hordes of the Things and DBF which were both OK.

[Daniel McLaughlin]

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Quote from Martin Helsdon on September 20, 2013, 21:14

Even in the period you cite, in 9th century Byzantium, an army division, the turma, was based on much smaller units, the banda, which could differ in size between three or four hundred men, and less than two hundred. The actual size of armies is thus subject to vague estimates, and the reality probably tended, save in the imperial heartland, towards the smaller instead of the greater size.

Lunar regiments could be like this – they could be administrative units of a few hundred men and then brought up to strength if necessary so that the army can expand and contract without having to create new regiments with new traditions or disband them.

[Daniel McLaughlin]

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Quote from Martin Helsdon on September 20, 2013, 22:34

Now if the various versions of the Argrath Saga are taken as being similar memories of the wars between the Lunar Empire and Sartar, it certainly makes me wonder just how much of what we generally take as the future history of the Hero Wars is actually propaganda. 😮

Certainly, there’s (roughly) just as much time between the time of Homer and the Trojan War, and if Homer’s epic only very approximately maps onto the realities of geopolitics in the region… maybe the Hero Wars might deviate significantly from canon… After the Bronze Age collapse the Greeks also had their Illiteracy Era!

Hail Harshax!

Yes – I personally like King of Sartar because of this. You can interpret in different ways like real world sources.

[Martin Helsdon]

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Lunar regiments could be like this – they could be administrative units of a few hundred men and then brought up to strength if necessary so that the army can expand and contract without having to create new regiments with new traditions or disband them.

Possibly, in the Heartlands, but all of the units listed so far are on active service in or near Dragon Pass.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there are the standards and regalia of other ‘retired’ regiments languishing in the relevant temples, waiting for reactivation; the regimental patron and lesser spirits would effectively store the traditions and oversee the recruitment and training of a reborn unit. Of course, this would make seizing the standards of an enemy unit on the battlefield even more disastrous than in the real world, as although the patron deity would still exist, the bound spirits would be lost and with them much of the strength of the regiment.

There are probably scenarios where the disgraced members of a regiment attempt to sneak into enemy temples to regain their imprisoned regalia, with even more reason than, say, the characters in The Eagle of the Ninth by Rosemary Sutcliff or Lindsey Davis’ The Iron Hand of Mars.

[Charles]

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There are probably scenarios where the disgraced members of a regiment attempt to sneak into enemy temples to regain their imprisoned regalia

Think of even more fun scenarios 🙂

A Sartarite unit that you fight is notionally your enemy, but honestly you know nothing about them.

But that Darjini unit that you fought sometime in the dim past and then were nominally on the same side and then fought again and now are supposedly allied again within the Goddesses shadow… They are the real enemy and everything that you know about them emphasizes this. And your regimental god requires that you hate them. You see the opportunity to secretly steal their standards. And you know that if you do not, you will be forever weakened on the battlefield…

[Martin Helsdon]

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But that Darjini unit that you fought sometime in the dim past and then were nominally on the same side and then fought again and now are supposedly allied again within the Goddesses shadow… They are the real enemy and everything that you know about them emphasizes this. And your regimental god requires that you hate them. You see the opportunity to secretly steam their standards. And you know that if you do not, you will be forever weakened on the battlefield…

Yes, the implication of a regimental deity having concerns and aims that are contradictory to those of realpolitik is going add a whole new dimension to warfare. The decisions of Lunar commanders are going to have to take into account animosities between the patrons of the regiments – putting two hostile regiments on the same flank might be more disastrous than keeping one well back in reserve, or even off the field of battle entirely.

And if one of your regiments is historically friendly with a unit arrayed against it on the other side…

The outcome of Jannisor’s assault on Glamour and the Great Sable Recognition comes to mind.

[Jeff Richard]

This is exactly the sort of issues that are paramount for Gloranthan commanders and captains. Preserve you own regimental regalia, regardless of consequences. Fight to please your patron god. If a commander gives an order that is contrary to the traditions of your regiment, disobey it. If your patron god hates the other units on “your side” far more than the enemy, fight the units on your side.

[Charles]

I imagine that Lunar/Yanafal Tarnils worshippers have rituals that allow them to bind the regimental gods and suppress the ‘bad stuff’ from the army p.o.v.. But sometimes the rituals fail, permanently or temporarily. And I’d bet that is an active topic of research within the Lunar College of Magic.

Argrath’s solution is much more interesting… He allows the creation of such mixed up units that they don’t have the consistency or history so that they hate others on their own side more than the real enemy. The more ancient units (i.e the clans) have all of those awkward relationships, never mind the animosity shown by Sartarites in general towards the Telmori.

[Martin Helsdon]

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If your patron god hates the other units on “your side” far more than the enemy, fight the units on your side.

This suggests that the Army List might require a Unit Compatibility chart similar to the old RQ Cult Compatibility chart to identify enemy, hostile, neutral and friendly units. And despite the We Are All Us mantra I suspect that there are numerous splits within the Lunar Army…

[Martin Helsdon]

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I imagine that Lunar/Yanafal Tarnils worshippers have rituals that allow them to bind the regimental gods and suppress the ‘bad stuff’ from the army p.o.v.. But sometimes the rituals fail, permanently or temporarily. And I’d bet that is an active topic of research within the Lunar College of Magic.

Perhaps that’s the function of some of the more arcane units: no direct military or massively magical capability, but the effect of suppressing antagonistic divinities. It would then become an aim of an enemy to damage or destroy those units to degrade the cohesiveness of the army.

Maybe a General’s own personal standard has some of this effect, augmented by the capability of the General….?

[Scott-A]

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Quote from Charles Corrigan on September 21, 2013, 17:37
I imagine that Lunar/Yanafal Tarnils worshippers have rituals that allow them to bind the regimental gods and suppress the ‘bad stuff’ from the army p.o.v.. But sometimes the rituals fail, permanently or temporarily. And I’d bet that is an active topic of research within the Lunar College of Magic.

Is heroquesting as your company god a thing that is done? Because I could totally see the college developing an interest in digging up mostly-forgotten stories about two opposed company gods vaguely cooperating.

“Hey, it turns out that both of your gods fought the water tribe in the same battle! And, oh look, I just coincidentally happen to have brought a bunch of masks and some captured tridents. Well, it be a shame to let them go to waste…”

[Jeff Richard]

I suspect the older the regiment is the more unwilling its soldiers and officers are to deviate in the slightest from received tradition. Ancient regiments like the Stonewall Phalanxes would rather riot than change the pace they march at – “adherence to tradition is why we have survived!” Newer regiments, like those raised by Hon-eel are far more flexible (then again their magic is usually weaker than some unit over a thousand years old). But after over a hundred years, even those regiments have become increasingly hide-bound.

But I do think the occasional Lunar warlord (main examples Magnificus, Arronius Jananthir, Hon-eel, and Jar-eel) heroquests to learn the secrets of a regimental god, gain its loyalty and adherence, and so on. Such a warlord can reveal something new about a regiment’s magic and rituals that even the regimental priests did not know. Such remarkable individuals can get incompatible units to cooperate, although even they resort to clever “tricks” as much as mythical insights.

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