Lunar Army discussions

[Jeff Richard]

First I wouldn’t compare the size of the armies of the militarized Hellenistic successor states (ruled by generals, kept in power purely by their armies) with the Seventh Wane Lunar army. If ever fully mustered in one theatre, the professional Lunar army (Heartlands, Cavalry, Provincial) would number just under 80,000 soldiers (not including satrapal and royal forces). Unlike the Successor States, which needed huge armies both to maintain their rule AND to defend against rival successors, the Lunar Empire has no compelling need to maintain a huge army.
The Lunar Empire, unlike the Hellenistic kingdoms, is viewed as the legitimate ruler by most people in the Heartlands (particularly Dara Happa). Sure there are occasionally peasant rebellions, sometimes Dart Wars between satraps get out of hand, and so on, but there has been no serious challenge to the Empire’s authority since 1506.
Additionally, since 1506 there has been no serious external threat to the Empire. The Pentans have retreated past the Redlands, Fronela is removed by the Syndic’s Ban, the Rockwoods defend against Ralios and Prax, leaving Dragon Pass as the only theater of significant activity.
Finally, the Lunar Empire has its arsenal of magical units – such gamechangers as the Field School of Magic, the Crater Makers, and, most significant, the Crimson Bat.
Beginning in the Sixth Wane, Lunar philosophies have increasingly emphasized self-indulgent gratification over reconstruction and military sacrifice. New art styles, magical fads, and bizarre cults have flourished, and an increasing gap has appeared between the leaders and the mass of Lunar peasantry. Only the Provinces remained at war, providing a place for warriors to hone their skills and for vain aristocrats to search for meaning in life. The Dart Wars are more highly celebrated by the ruling nobility than the campaigns in Dragon Pass and the Holy Country.
Now this situation starts to change once the Pentans invade in 1625. Oraya is lost and First Blessed is the theater of war where Jar-eel proves herself to be a demigoddess of War and Life. Still, the Empire underestimates the threat from Dragon Pass and throws an army of no more than 20,000 to 35,000 into Dragon Pass in 1628, only to be completely routed by Argrath. Soon after the Civil Wars begin, and by 1634, the size of the Lunar Army has no doubt grown as men have been enrolled to fight the Pentans, to fight the rebellious satraps, kings, barbarians, and new would-be rulers. But that’s still some ways off in the future….

[Joerg Baumgartner]

Jeff, does it have to be “Dart Wars?”

The original term “Dart Competition” was an euphemism for political murder, and was expanded to include commando style raids carefully avoiding any uninvolved bystanders. (Bad luck if you were a client of the target, though…)

[Jeff Richard]

It is actually called Dart Competition in the Guide until we get to the Civil War period. Then it is generally called Dart Wars. But the stakes and violence go way up then!

[Scott Martin]

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on September 20, 2013, 11:59
There has been no serious challenge to the Empire’s authority since 1506. Additionally, since 1506 there has been no serious external threat to the Empire.

Compelling. Even before that, as you note, most of their famous victories were accomplished through magic.

If the Lunar army was once much larger, what martial traditions have been extinguished over the years and required someone like HonEel to come along and create replacement units? If I were the Empire, that history would be the first place I’d look for inspiration when it becomes clear that we need to remilitarize in a hurry. On the other hand, they also like to innovate and the Goddess provides, so history may not inform the future at all.

[Martin Helsdon]

Quote:

The reason I went for a bigger army than this is by comparing it with ancient armies though I know there is no reason that Gloranthan armies shouldn’t be smaller. I reckoned that if Ptolemy IV could use 70 000 infantry and 5000 cavalry at Raphia from a population of about 7 million that the Lunar Empire with a population similar to Ptolemaic Egypt should be able to field a similar army. This was a major effort by Ptolemy but didn’t constitute his whole army as he still had to defend his other frontiers.

Bear in mind that the size of armies in antiquity were often subject to considerable exaggeration, by historians and the states they served, to give really impressive (but in reality highly impractical) numbers. Even when a force existed on paper (or parchment, papyrus or clay tablet, as appropriate) it did not mean that a unit of that strength was available. Desertions, deceased, injured or sick troops, or even fraud would cut back the actual numbers, and some units listed on paper might be nothing more than that.

When ancient sources start to give troop numbers of tens of thousands they become increasingly unreliable, simply down to the logistical issues of maintaining a force of that size in the field. Even when the size of individual units is given (in suspiciously round hundreds or thousands very often) it is highly debatable as to how that paper strength mapped onto actual numbers of troops.

This is even more true for societies that lacked the bureaucratic infrastructure of the Near East: there’s good reason to believe that in many of the battles in Anglo-Saxon England, for example, between the Saxons and the Danes, the great armies actually consisted of fewer than a hundred men on each size: often probably barely thirty.

[Jeff Richard]

Quote:

Quote from Scott Martin on September 20, 2013, 14:30
If the Lunar army was once much larger, what martial traditions have been extinguished over the years and required someone like HonEel to come along and create replacement units? If I were the Empire, that history would be the first place I’d look for inspiration when it becomes clear that we need to remilitarize in a hurry. On the other hand, they also like to innovate and the Goddess provides, so history may not inform the future at all.

After the near destruction of the Lunar army in 1628 at the Battle of Heroes (where the Lunar Empire first truly discovers how dangerous a foe Argrath Dragontooth is), things actually get worse for the Empire. The Red Emperor is killed and does not return. Civil war breaks out and it is not until 1632 or 1633 that Glamour regains control of most of the Heartlands. Other lands such as Carmania and Velthil are independent from Glamour. But when the Empire does strike at Argrath in 1635, it is with a far bigger army than in 1628 (amazing what five or six years of civil war does) and defeats Argrath. Argrath flees and raises a new, bigger army of Orlanthi, Praxians, giants, and elder races – and then defeats the Lunar Army in 1638. Argrath gets seven years of peace, and then the cycle restarts, but with even greater risks and destruction.

[Daniel McLaughlin]

Quote:

Quote from Martin Helsdon on September 20, 2013, 16:30

Quote:

The reason I went for a bigger army than this is by comparing it with ancient armies though I know there is no reason that Gloranthan armies shouldn’t be smaller. I reckoned that if Ptolemy IV could use 70 000 infantry and 5000 cavalry at Raphia from a population of about 7 million that the Lunar Empire with a population similar to Ptolemaic Egypt should be able to field a similar army. This was a major effort by Ptolemy but didn’t constitute his whole army as he still had to defend his other frontiers.

Bear in mind that the size of armies in antiquity were often subject to considerable exaggeration, by historians and the states they served, to give really impressive (but in reality highly impractical) numbers. Even when a force existed on paper (or parchment, papyrus or clay tablet, as appropriate) it did not mean that a unit of that strength was available. Desertions, deceased, injured or sick troops, or even fraud would cut back the actual numbers, and some units listed on paper might be nothing more than that.

When ancient sources start to give troop numbers of tens of thousands they become increasingly unreliable, simply down to the logistical issues of maintaining a force of that size in the field. Even when the size of individual units is given (in suspiciously round hundreds or thousands very often) it is highly debatable as to how that paper strength mapped onto actual numbers of troops.

This is even more true for societies that lacked the bureaucratic infrastructure of the Near East: there’s good reason to believe that in many of the battles in Anglo-Saxon England, for example, between the Saxons and the Danes, the great armies actually consisted of fewer than a hundred men on each size: often probably barely thirty.

I’m not an idiot. I know that there is a difference between establishment and actual strength. The sources in question are actually pretty good – for the Byzantines we have pay rolls, muster rolls, census data and lots of other documents.

None of this means that the Lunar Empire has to be the same as the Byzantines – I was just explaining why I went for the larger figure.

[Daniel McLaughlin]

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on September 20, 2013, 11:59
First I wouldn’t compare the size of the armies of the militarized Hellenistic successor states (ruled by generals, kept in power purely by their armies) with the Seventh Wane Lunar army. If ever fully mustered in one theatre, the professional Lunar army (Heartlands, Cavalry, Provincial) would number just under 80,000 soldiers (not including satrapal and royal forces). Unlike the Successor States, which needed huge armies both to maintain their rule AND to defend against rival successors, the Lunar Empire has no compelling need to maintain a huge army.
The Lunar Empire, unlike the Hellenistic kingdoms, is viewed as the legitimate ruler by most people in the Heartlands (particularly Dara Happa). Sure there are occasionally peasant rebellions, sometimes Dart Wars between satraps get out of hand, and so on, but there has been no serious challenge to the Empire’s authority since 1506.
Additionally, since 1506 there has been no serious external threat to the Empire. The Pentans have retreated past the Redlands, Fronela is removed by the Syndic’s Ban, the Rockwoods defend against Ralios and Prax, leaving Dragon Pass as the only theater of significant activity.
Finally, the Lunar Empire has its arsenal of magical units – such gamechangers as the Field School of Magic, the Crater Makers, and, most significant, the Crimson Bat.
Beginning in the Sixth Wane, Lunar philosophies have increasingly emphasized self-indulgent gratification over reconstruction and military sacrifice. New art styles, magical fads, and bizarre cults have flourished, and an increasing gap has appeared between the leaders and the mass of Lunar peasantry. Only the Provinces remained at war, providing a place for warriors to hone their skills and for vain aristocrats to search for meaning in life. The Dart Wars are more highly celebrated by the ruling nobility than the campaigns in Dragon Pass and the Holy Country.
Now this situation starts to change once the Pentans invade in 1625. Oraya is lost and First Blessed is the theater of war where Jar-eel proves herself to be a demigoddess of War and Life. Still, the Empire underestimates the threat from Dragon Pass and throws an army of no more than 20,000 to 35,000 into Dragon Pass in 1628, only to be completely routed by Argrath. Soon after the Civil Wars begin, and by 1634, the size of the Lunar Army has no doubt grown as men have been enrolled to fight the Pentans, to fight the rebellious satraps, kings, barbarians, and new would-be rulers. But that’s still some ways off in the future….

🙁 -I was explaining why I went for the larger figure not telling you that you had to do the same. If you want the Lunar Army to be smaller that’s fine. As I said there is no reason that the Lunar Army has to be anything like an ancient army as it is made up.

[Jeff Richard]

Quote:

Quote from Daniel McLaughlin on September 20, 2013, 18:27

🙁 -I was explaining why I went for the larger figure not telling you that you had to do the same. If you want the Lunar Army to be smaller that’s fine. As I said there is no reason that the Lunar Army has to be anything like an ancient army as it is made up.

Dan – no problem. I was just explaining why Greg and I both think the Lunar Army is on the smaller side. Given the interest you and others have had in this subject, I figured you’d all appreciate a fuller answer. And we have about 35 years worth of material on this – since Greg has been fascinated with the Lunar Army since he first discovered it!

[Scott Martin]

[how the Lunar army rebuilds]

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on September 20, 2013, 18:23
Civil war breaks out and it is not until 1632 or 1633 that Glamour regains control of most of the Heartlands. Other lands such as Carmania and Velthil are independent from Glamour.

I like this direction. Off to take the microscope to the Dragon Pass scenarios!

[Martin Helsdon]

Quote:

I’m not an idiot.

Greek idiotes: private citizen, individual. 😮

Quote:

I know that there is a difference between establishment and actual strength. The sources in question are actually pretty good – for the Byzantines we have pay rolls, muster rolls, census data and lots of other documents.

All of which are subject to varying levels of reliability, and, at the period you are citing, derive from a shrinking and heavily centralized state which was in the process of a gradual collapse, in part due to failures in its bureaucracy (quite possibly its records weren’t accurate) and its command & control.

Quote:

None of this means that the Lunar Empire has to be the same as the Byzantines – I was just explaining why I went for the larger figure.

I’m noting that it isn’t a good model for ancient world armies and warfare. Bronze Age armies were quite small, and even early Iron Age armies weren’t as large as the sources state – simply down to logistics and the issue that a large army would tend to die of disease. Even if a state had a large population, attempting force projection beyond its own territory was difficult due to the lack of supply. Some armies such as the Assyrian were relatively large but could only operate by exacting tribute – they couldn’t stay in one place in any number for very long.

[Erick Eckberg]

Once again, Jeff; you seem to be categorizing these units nicely into a format. Do you have in mind some sort of large scale battle rules? The old wargamer in me is curious. Something on a unit-level? I am toying with some rules; pretty standard stuff but with the inclusion of powerful Rune-based magic (such as that ascribed to the Beryl Phalanx or the Lunar Army as a whole). I know it goes against the grain of Heroquest, and I have checked out the Warhamster rules set forth in TotRM #12, but…. it would be fun to fight it out at Dwernapple!

[Daniel McLaughlin]

Quote:

Quote from Martin Helsdon on September 20, 2013, 19:05

Quote:

I’m not an idiot.

Greek idiotes: private citizen, individual. 😮

Quote:

I know that there is a difference between establishment and actual strength. The sources in question are actually pretty good – for the Byzantines we have pay rolls, muster rolls, census data and lots of other documents.

All of which are subject to varying levels of reliability, and, at the period you are citing, derive from a shrinking and heavily centralized state which was in the process of a gradual collapse, in part due to failures in its bureaucracy (quite possibly its records weren’t accurate) and its command & control.

Quote:

None of this means that the Lunar Empire has to be the same as the Byzantines – I was just explaining why I went for the larger figure.

I’m noting that it isn’t a good model for ancient world armies and warfare. Bronze Age armies were quite small, and even early Iron Age armies weren’t as large as the sources state – simply down to logistics and the issue that a large army would tend to die of disease. Even if a state had a large population, attempting force projection beyond its own territory was difficult due to the lack of supply. Some armies such as the Assyrian were relatively large but could only operate by exacting tribute – they couldn’t stay in one place in any number for very long.

OK. You clearly have strong views on this and you are certainly allowed to have them. You think the Lunar Army is more like a Bronze Age army? Fair enough. It needs more chariots then and a lot less cavalry!

[Martin Helsdon]

Quote:

OK. You clearly have strong views on this and you are certainly allowed to have them. You think the Lunar Army is more like a Bronze Age army? Fair enough. It needs more chariots then and a lot less cavalry,

I simply consider the size of Bronze Age and Iron Age armies in the historical sources to be significantly inflated above their actual operational size.

Throughout history, up until almost the modern era, armies numbered in the tens of thousands were very rare, simply because away from controlled territory there wasn’t the logistical infrastructure to support them. The only way in which they could exist was either to campaign where supplies could either be delivered in bulk (by sea or by convenient rivers) or be obtained by seizing the existing infrastructure and/or stripping the land of supplies (and there’s a serious limit for how long or how often that can be done). A large Iron Age army could devastate a region simply by passing through, without actual intentional destruction. And such an army had to keep moving because of the impact of poor sanitation – if it didn’t then it would suffer attrition through disease.

Now sanitation may not be a factor in Gloranthan warfare, if you have priests who can protect the force from the machinations of Mallia, but supply of food, fodder and water will be a factor.

Even in the period you cite, in 9th century Byzantium, an army division, the turma, was based on much smaller units, the banda, which could differ in size between three or four hundred men, and less than two hundred. The actual size of armies is thus subject to vague estimates, and the reality probably tended, save in the imperial heartland, towards the smaller instead of the greater size.

Regarding the Lunar Army: given the very different technological background of Gloranthan armies and terrestrial ones, it’s difficult to compare the two in terms of military technology. The big armies of the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age of our world’s Near East relied upon chariots because of the availability of suitable horses; they weren’t right next to the territory of steppes nomads – though the incursions of the Cimmerians and Scythians certainly had an impact, and the eventual arrival of the Medes and Persians sealed the fate of the Assyrians/Babylonians. It isn’t an exact correspondence, though I admit I tend to view the Pelorians as closer to Assyria/Babylonia than, say, Greece or Rome.

[Scott Martin]

Quote:

Quote from Martin Helsdon on September 20, 2013, 21:14
Now sanitation may not be a factor in Gloranthan warfare, if you have priests who can protect the force from the machinations of Mallia, but supply of food, fodder and water will be a factor.

As someone relatively new to the age-old shield push of canon, this exchange is really useful to me for raising questions of the challenges Gloranthan military magic needs to overcome and the divergent solutions various regimental patrons provide. Some get sunspears, others get logistics, some get a combination of combat and headquarters magic. So thanks guys!

[Author]

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