Western religion?

[David Scott]

BoG didn’t access Greg’s notes or maps. MD have only in the last few years got them all together in one place. These are paper not digital and quite extensive in some areas and lacking in others. They are handwritten as well as typed, a bit mixed up and contain notes on other chaosium products. There is still stuff being found that Greg didn’t have anymore (for example the lifting of the Syndics ban on page 201 of the guide is based on a map I had, that Jeff had never seen).

[Mankcam]

Fair enough. Well at least the G2G is out now, and hopefully its presence will stop these issues happening in future.

If Trekkies can come to terms with the fact that the new Star Trek films have blown up the planet Vulcan, then I’m sure I can come to terms with some setting changes to Glorantha 🙂

Now that aside, I see that the Trader Princes now worship Issaries, and revere Caselain is a patron hero.

So is this only in Maniria, or do Malkioni traders all across The West revere Issaries? If not, who do they revere instead?

Also, do they consider Issaries to be an Ascended Master (or equal to such), thus keeping the Invisible God as Supreme Being? Or do they worship Issaries as a Deity, in a similar fashion to how theistic cultures would? The later would put them at odds with all the other Malkioni I suspect (except the Henotheists)

[Jeff Richard]

Blood Over Gold is an excellent adventure, but a lot of the background that Jeff Kyer wrote did not mesh with a lot of Greg’s unpublished material (or make sense with some of the stuff already known about the Holy Country and Ralios). As Peter said, Issaries didn’t exercise a lot of editorial control over that material, nor did it share the Shadowlands map or the main Genertelan maps with the writers (these maps were Greg’s master maps and were used by Colin for the Guide maps). This is in part the impetus for the Guide was to get all this material out and available to writers, artists, GM’s, and players.

One thing that we did with the Guide is rely on Greg’s copious amounts of unpublished notes, maps, and materials that were usually shockingly internally consistent.

For what it is worth, Bastis is the region around the small city of Yolanda and it is clearly labeled as such in Greg’s master maps.

[Jeff Richard]

Trader Prince Malkionism comes from Ralios, not Seshnela. And with stronger ties to east Safelster. They practice a henotheist variety of Malkionism that worships the Invisible God alongside the Orlanthi gods (page 350 of the Guide). Some philosophers posit that Equal Exchange is the First Principle, but most folk worship Issaries as the god of trade and the patron of the Trade Princes.

The Trader Princes had little contact with the Rokari until after the Closing (except during the brief periods that Seshnela ruled Safelster), and are at least as heavily influenced by Esrolia and the Holy Country as they are by Ralios. In truth, they are probably more so.

[Mankcam]

Yes I see that Yolanda is the town for the region of Bastis, and sits approximately where Jeff Kyler had the previous town of Bastis, so thats not a big inconsistency. Joral not existing is probably the biggie for the BoG campaign, although its very easy to homebrew back in. I was suprised to see far less islands in the Wenelian Islands chain, but again no big deal. I did like the idea of Jubal Town serving as a kind of ‘thieves town’ or ‘mercenary town’. This doesn’t fit the new description, although some elements of that could be easily ruled back in to an extent. But as far as a full-on ‘thieves town’, its probably more logical to tie that in with Smelch, given that it is a known haven for pirates ( I presume it still is – I need to check the G2G).

I presumed that the Trader Princes were Henotheists whose ancestors originated from Safelster. Seems logical that their ties were from the eastern regions, given the influence of Issaries. I love the way that neighbouring cultures influence each other in Glorantha, this makes the world feel so much more realistic, and is similar to historical cultures.

So if Malkioni worship Issaries in Safelster, Handra, and The New Coast, then who do the other Malkioni traders revere for a trade patron?
The Rokari of Seshnela would still engage in trade practices I believe, as I suspect the Hrestoli of Loskalm would also do. Issaries would probably seem a bit like a ‘Jabberer Religion’ to me; I assume that they have an Ascended Master or a patron hero who they revere for trade blessings and the like?

[Peter Metcalfe]

So is this only in Maniria, or do Malkioni traders all across The West revere Issaries? If not, who do they revere instead?

Malkioni traders will probably have spells based on their merchant keyword or trade rune IMO. For the most part, this wouldn’t be lore learned through the footsteps of some Saint or Hero but rather the tricks of the trade.

[Jeff Richard]

OK, let’s distinguish a few things. In Ralios, the Issaries cult dominates long-distance overland trade between Ralios and Esrolia. Some of the caravan leaders may also subscribe to a henotheist Malkioni philosophy, but many are just good Holy Country Issaries cultists. They work with the Trader Princes and the city lords of Safelster (and may even be one and the same), and there are shrines to Goldentongue the whole way through Maniria. This is a FAR more important trade route than the Desert Trackers of Prax.

The Rokari sect developed during the Closing and is of negligible status in Maniria. Since the Opening, merchants from the Quinpolic League may be found in Handra, but are likely rarer in places like Fay Jee, Kaxtorplose, and Peelo. Esrolia has far more cultural, commercial, and political importance than Seshnela throughout Maniria.

The rise of Handra as a naval power is the big conflict with the Trader Princes. Goods from Ralios can go from Highwater down the Sarbosi river to Handra, rather than overland to Yolanda, meaning that goods from Handra are far less expensive that goods carried from Highwater to Yolanda to Seolgos to Yellowstone to Saltcastle and then to Solung (where they are shipped down the Gorling River to Rhigos). As a result, the Trader Princes have lost much of their once seemingly unlimited wealth in only two generations.

[Scott Martin]

At least among the Brithini it’s the Talars who handle trade and diplomacy, interestingly enough. If other schools emulate this, it puts a different spin on the “mercantile” struggle between Kingdom, Coast and League in modern Seshnela and just might explain the regular grandiose bankruptcy-collapses of royal power there if we squint hard enough. Plus since silver is such a popular dynastic attribute around those parts, a new light on the trade god they assassinated up north along with hereditary power.

I wonder if they speak Trade, speaking of barbarous jabber.

Do the Trader Princes and the Argan Argar caravans interact much? Seems funny that the chain gang route stops at Guhan now without continuing on toward Argan Argar’s country.

[Peter Metcalfe]

At least among the Brithini it’s the Talars who handle trade and diplomacy, interestingly enough

I don’t think the Brithini Talars are traders in the modern sense of the word. Rather they act for their community and their trades are the equivalent of diplomatic agreements rather than commercial transactions. They are relics of a pre-commercial age.

The Vadeli OTOH are pretty much gung-ho on money for goods services which in my opinion, fuels a negative impression of commerce within Malkionism as a whole.

[Scott Martin]

Just quoting GTG 405 where their functions include management, “trade” and generally dealing with outsiders, it’s not necessarily a Cults of Prax-era mercantile affair, but then again neither is Issaries these days.

[Jeff Richard]

In Noloswal and the rest of the Quinpolic League, the talars handle trade with outsiders (which includes with the Issaries Goldentongues). Noloswal has a Barbarian Quarter which is notorious for its brothels, sorcerers, and demonic temples. The city attracts merchants from across Genertela as it is the best sea port with access to the interior of Seshnela and Ralios – all such trade (except between barbarians) must go through the talars. Tradetalk is used in such transactions (remember, the MSE spread use of Tradetalk to Kralorela and Pamaltela).

Talars are trained to deal with outsiders and know spells to aid them in their caste duties. These spells do not come from Ascended Masters or by emulating the gods, but are logical extensions of caste duties and actions. That being said, in Noloswal some talars may well also own a lucky statuette of the Patron of Trade or incorporate things that smacks of God Learnerism to other Rokari.

[Peter Metcalfe]

Just quoting GTG 405 where their functions include management, “trade” and generally dealing with outsiders, it’s not necessarily a Cults of Prax-era mercantile affair, but then again neither is Issaries these days.

Let me explain my thinking in more detail. Trade includes barter and exchanges like “I will give you this nice shiny sharp sword in return for the right to build a mill on the river”. A Brithini Talar, being a walking archaicism, is never going to accept the idea that that the lives of the people in the community that he governs are going to solve their own needs in a market economy. A Brithini farmer in need of a plow should not be thinking of approaching a Brithini smith and offering him some coin or produce in return for a plow. He would be usurping the Talar’s authority over his community if he did so. He should be going to the Talar complaining that he has no plow. The Talar then will then go to the smith and tell him to make a plow and give it to the farmer. The talar tells people what to do, it’s his job, not that of shiny coins.

Within the Brithini economy, there are no internal markets. They are similar to the Incas. Surpluses are stored at the appropriate warehouses and the required authorities informed. Outside the Brithini economy, the Talars can freely understand the concept of exchanging their wealth in return for goods produced by the outsiders and have no qualms in doing so. But to do so among their own people is a Step Too Far, a Thing Not to be Spoken Off and so on. If they did so, they would be abandoning their own duties as Talars and become to age and die.

So the duties of the Brithini Talars do include trade, management and dealing with outsiders. It’s just that (IMO) trade falls under dealing with outsiders and not management of their own people.

[Jeff Richard]

Peter is absolutely right with regard to the Brithini. In Arolanit, a Dronar needing an item that cannot be provided by his fellow caste-members goes to the Talar who arranges it to be provided by another caste. In the rare event only an outsider can provide the needed good (like iron) then the Talar manages that.

But the Seshnegi are not Brithini, no matter how much they emulate the Brithini Way.

[Mankcam]

So how does it work in Seshnela? Does the local Talar still broker and facilitate services between the castes in the same way the Brithini Talars do?

Also do they send traders out to the other countries, or do they wait for foreign traders to come to them at Noloswal?

I suspect they would have trade emissaries in Handra?

BTW, Handra would make a great city setting to have detailed…:-)

[Scott Martin]

Great points from all and thanks. In a reactive mode trying to get behind Issaries so that “talars do the ‘trading'” hit a nerve.

This might not be the place for it, but the point at which the West absorbed, coopted or concocted Garzeen and his silver monetary system (not to mention his mercantile language) may be helpful to figuring out their forms of “trade.” The Silver Empire was Silver, so it may happen very early on.

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