Western religion?

[Ufnal]

I’m finally reading my copy of Blood over Gold that I got some time ago (great book, BTW!) and I compared it with what I read on this site some time ago about the current view of the West (I don’t have the Guide, unfortunately, and probably won’t for some time). I had the impression that the current vision of the Western religions (for example the Churches described in BoG) no longer includes things like veneration and blessings. Am I correct with that? And if so, then how is “common” magic (one not used by sorcerers) handled now among Western societies?

[David Scott]

Common magic is sorcery – spells. The Guide covers a great deal of information on all of the western cultures. Western culture is detailed on pages 48-53, then in each geographic area in detail

Overview of Religious Practices
“Sorcery is the type of magic which is most acceptable and most used. Most Malkioni consider any magic which is more useful than kitchen or plow charms to be too powerful and dangerous for normal people to try.”

Worship of Gods and spirits is considered enslavement and limits your spiritual growth.

Temples
“Temples to the Invisible God conform to ancient rules of sacred geometry”

Each region has it’s own styles that the Guide covers.

Read the Xeotam Dialogues – this is the key document for understanding western magic:
http://www.glorantha.com/glorantha/the-xeotam-dialogues/

More info will be available on sorcery once HeroQuest Glorantha is published.

Without the Guide, you may find these links useful:
http://www.glorantha.com/docs/western-overview/
http://www.glorantha.com/docs/quick-summary-gloranthan-cultures-part-two-westerners/
http://www.glorantha.com/sample-cultural-distribution-maps/western-cultural-map/

[Ufnal]

Thank you! I’ve read most of these links, but still your post was quite enlightening. But it leaves me a bit confused – does that mean that common people in Western societies have no access to magic higher than some simple household spells? Would that mean that Orlanthi barbarians or Praxian nomads are on average way more magically powerful?

And also do things like Saintly Orders still exist and provide some magic? If not, I really cannot imagine the Blood over Gold setting without saint Castellain’s blessings helping maintain the great trade route and being a source of trading power and influence for the Trader Prince Houses.

[boztakang]

Common people in Western societies tend to use less Individual magic than most barbarian, nomadic, or animistic peoples. However, their magic specialists are vastly more powerful than the priests or shamans of those other cultures. I suspect it balances out fairly evenly overall.

A malkioni farmer does not “need” their own magic, because their Wizard will perform the blessings they need at the correct times, on the correct items. Not only is our Wizard WAY better at casting “ploughsharp” than some stinky hill-man, he also knows how to do so without endangering his eternal soul. Sure, enslaving yourself to demons can grant you a pretty parlor-trick or two, but REAL magic is performed by real magicians, who have studied their entire lives to perform it correctly.

[Edan Jones]

All heavily IMG and YGWV:

I imagine that many of the worker caste guilds have produced “common grimoires”, collections of their useful common magic spells which they teach to their members.

A farming guild will likely have spells to aid their work with a plough, to kill vermin who eat grain and similar things like that. While they lack the flourish of a Debaldan wizard’s “summon deadly wave” spell, the farmers are more likely to appreciate them.

Of course, much of the magic will still be cast by Readers, those members of the non-wizard castes who have read grimoires like the Abiding Book and learned spells from them. These spells would include some of the HQ1 blessings, and would be cast in large rituals which combine worship with enchantment.

The Saints are now more commonly known as Ascended Masters, and while they are venerated, you gain no magic from this act. Some however, may have written their own grimoires describing how they did their great deeds, and in turn these grimoires may be used by the nobility and wizards to step in their footsteps.
Some henotheistic Malkioni may even go so far as to worship the Ascended Masters as if they were gods, sacrificing to them in the hopes of power, but this is somewhat unusual to say the least.

[Peter Metcalfe]

But it leaves me a bit confused – does that mean that common people in Western societies have no access to magic higher than some simple household spells?

The common people have access to magic appropriate to their occupation. For example a warrior would have warrior spells which are dependent on his appropriate rune or his keyword. Malkioni also can learn individual spells.

Would that mean that Orlanthi barbarians or Praxian nomads are on average way more magically powerful?

No. Orlanthi and Praxians are more versatile but Malkioni spells are more effective in most cases, receiving a specific ability bonus (since the spells must be used for its specific purpose and can’t be stretched). An Orlanthi would only get a specific ability bonus for his rune magic if he was using a specific breakout ability or a feat. A Praxian’s spirit magic would generally be inferior because only a shaman can use spirits unstretched.

And also do things like Saintly Orders still exist and provide some magic?

There are magical orders. The cults of Flintnail and Pavis in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure are examples of such.

[Peter Metcalfe]

I imagine that many of the worker caste guilds have produced “common grimoires”, collections of their useful common magic spells which they teach to their members.

Malkioni spells are, by definition, not common magic (HQ2 p110 although that may be outdated). A spell cast by a commoner is the same type of spell as cast by a wizard. Wizards are more versatile in their magics due to their deeper understanding.

Of course, much of the magic will still be cast by Readers, those members of the non-wizard castes who have read grimoires like the Abiding Book and learned spells from them.

I don’t think the Abiding Book is read for magic by the non-wizards.

These spells would include some of the HQ1 blessings, and would be cast in large rituals which combine worship with enchantment.

I do think that what blessings are now requires the use of a wizard rather than being able to be cast by a non-wizard.

[Edan Jones]

Malkioni spells are, by definition, not common magic (HQ2 p110 although that may be outdated). A spell cast by a commoner is the same type of spell as cast by a wizard. Wizards are more versatile in their magics due to their deeper understanding.

True, the term common magic to apply to spells and charms has fallen by the wayside, thanks for the reminder. I was meaning spells learned individually (Sartar: KoH pg 75, and the description of Hedge Wizards in HQ2 pg 115).

I don’t think the Abiding Book is read for magic by the non-wizards.

I do think that what blessings are now requires the use of a wizard rather than being able to be cast by a non-wizard.

That’s a valid reading of the evidence, I’ve been going on articles like this: http://www.glorantha.com/docs/malkioni-qa/
“The lowest rank of priest within the Rokari Church is called a “Reader”. A Reader does just […] Readers are not permitted to gloss or otherwise interpret the sacred writings […]. Most Readers are not of the Zzaburi caste, but are literate Dromali or Horali who have been appointed by a Watcher. Most Readers know some caste-specific spells.”
Is the relevant paragraph. Since the Abiding Book contains “specific instruction” for the castes (GtG pg 408), I personally feel that these Readers would be the liturgists mentioned on page 116 of HQ2.

IMG, a wizard who studies the Abiding Book casts spells that benefits their entire community. However, many smaller issues are too unimportant to bother him, but still present a disruptive influence. This is where Readers come in, appointed to read the caste specific spells of the Abiding Book, to remind their fellows about how to remain lawful, and to prevent the risk of spiritual contamination of the Knower.

I imagine the Readers will be picked from those unable to do their usual caste responsibilities, those who have lost an arm or leg in the line of duty and similar. They will be taught to read, and then instructed in the reading of the great grimoire (while being expressly forbidden from interpreting it in any way).

[Alistair Jones]

I don’t think it is possible to faithfully read any scripture without a spiritual effect.
Whether it is world shaking, a reinforcement of will-power or a defence against night terrors is dependent upon the reader’s intent, personal power, and religious status.
Only a God Learner (spit upon the accursed ones) could come up with a subject title such as ‘The Abiding Book as Literature’.

[Mankcam]

Ufnal, ‘Blood Over Gold’ is still a great setting, although the I suspect the artwork for the Trader Princes themselves may be a bit inaccurate now. It’s hard to get a feel for Malkioni now, but they definitely are presented more of an ancient style culture in the G2G rather than a medieval culture. I’m kinda mixing up bits of the Macedonian Empire with early Byzantine Empire to present a flavour to my troupe, unless upcoming supplements present otherwise.

Hence I suspect that the Venetian Empire influence on the portrayal of the Trader Princes is now changed greatly.

Despite such, I don’t think magic or worship would be greatly different from the content in ‘Blood Over Gold’. As a previous poster said, the Saints are also now referred to as the Ascended Masters, so this title in itself goes a long way to throw of the analogies with medieval religion.

I would still think that all the previous magic and blessings that the Ashari use would still be more or less consistent with Blood Over Gold

[Ufnal]

Mankcam: I was under the impression that previously saintly orders were more about veneration and blessings and now with those things gone (as far as I understand) the saintly orders of Ashara Church would be more about studying the deeds of Saint Caselain and his companions and learning the spells they discovered on their journey. Btw, was Great Trek a Heroquest retracing the steps of Ashara, opening the Road, forging relationships, enabling trade again and finding lots of trading and communication spells?

[Edan Jones]

As far as I understand it, and YGWV, Ascended Masters like Caselain are still venerated by many sects, it just doesn’t provide any spiritual benefit. It’s done because they were great people who were deserving of honour and respect.

You can have a statue of Gerlant in your town, and people may bow or make the sign of the Law Rune before it, but they gain no magic from the act. Instead for this they would need to read grimoires describing how he performed his magic, so you could recreate it. Much as in BoG you needed to have read their scriptures or formularies of the Asharan Saints to perform know their spells/blessings.

Of course, it’s mentioned in the guide that the Trader Princes are henotheistic in nature, and it’s also mentioned that some henotheists sacrifice to the Ascended Masters as pagans do to gods. It would not be out of the question that the Asharan sect would sacrifice to Caselain in some manner, perhaps as a subcult of Issaries (who may in fact be who Ashara is, just worshipped as an aspect of the Invisible God.)

And I suspect you are right about the Great Trek being a heroquest, or at least something similar.

[Jeff Richard]

FWIW, is no mention at all of Ashara in the Guide. Nor is Castelain referred to as an Ascended Master – but only as a Hero. He is worshiped as the patron Hero of the Trader Princes. The cult of Issaries (and yes that is its name) is especially favored by the Trader Princes as the patron of trade. Every city along the Manirian Road has its temple-market to Issaries and the local Malkioni philosophers posit that the Equal Exchange is the First Principle.

YGWV, of course.

[Edan Jones]

That makes sense.
Though I wouldn’t have been surprised to discover that Ashara was merely a local name for Issaries though, like how it has been mentioned that Matu is in some ways the Talastari name for Orlanth.

[Scott Martin]

Edan Jones says:

I wouldn’t have been surprised to discover that Ashara was merely a local name for Issaries

Love it. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to discover that “Is[h]ar[e]” isn’t merely a euhemerized echo of Ashara from the days when his practices took root among the barbarians in the form of a literal “cargo” cult. Even the caravan god has to come from somewhere!

[Author]

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