A few thoughts on Saird

[Jeff Richard]

Just moving the Saird discussion to a new thread.

As an introduction, here’s the entry on Saird in the Guide to Glorantha:

Saird: This river region, centered on Mirin’s Cross, is an agriculturally rich land, with fields of maize and wheat. In the First Age, this was Heortling land, home of the Berenethtelli, and suffered terribly from the Broken Council and the Gbaji Wars. The region was settled in the Second Age by Dara Happan colonists that followed in the wake of Verenmars’ heroic wars against the EWF. Verenmars and his heirs ruled the Kingdom of Saird from 960 until 1120. After the Dragonkill, the residents and their culture were absorbed by the reoccupying Orlanthi. When the northern Lunars invaded, the architectural style and street patterns naturally appealed to them. The Provincial government is still headquartered in Mirin’s Cross.
Saird is a rich stew of little religious and cultural enclaves, hostile cults, and different cultures. The Storm, Earth, Solar, and Lunar pantheons are all worshiped here, along with local gods, such as Jajagappa, Jadarenasa, and Riyesta. Although the cults are not unified, the harmonious duality of Nature is widely held, especially in the myth of the competition between Orlanth and Yelm for the hand of Ernalda, the chief Earth goddess. The Yelmalio cult is very important in Saird, and its eleven Sun Dome Temples have enjoyed the patronage of the Broken Council, EWF, Sairdite, and Lunar overlords.

And now onto the discussion in progress:

Quote:

Quote from Harald Smith on September 4, 2013, 00:25

Quote:

Quote from Scott Martin on September 3, 2013, 22:29

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on September 3, 2013, 18:21
As for Saird itself, it probably is a source of bronze (lots of Air gods fought there), copper (lots of Earth cults there), better wine than in the Heartlands (but not as good as in Esrolia or Vinavale), and good horses. Also good redsmiths there, probably better than what you get in the Heartlands. There’s also dwarf goods from the Imther Mountains and Jord’s Eye, plus furs from the Elder Wilds.

Thanks — this is useful in understanding just how the Empire changed in the relatively brief consolidation period between the Conquering Daughter’s triumphs and the first Seleran invasions. By the way, is this boring to people? Except for the occasional dispatches from Imther, I’ve only run across fragments on Saird. We know the region produces spectacular magicians but a lot of work needs to be done.

As Jeff noted, bronze and copper are both prevalent – Saird was a significant battleground between Storm and Solar cultures fighting over local Earth. Certainly at the Hill of Gold in Vanch you can find Fire Crystals and likely some trace amounts of gold.

My old notes on Imtherian trade were the following: Imther exports preserved foods (apples, cheeses, and dried or salted meats), cider, leather and linen, stone, and metal (bronze and copper). It imports exotic food and wine, salt and spices, bronze plate armor (whose manufacture is prohibited in the provincial kingdoms), and slaves for the mines and quarries.

And, of course, dwarf goods (such as the furstones) for which trade is strictly controlled and through the King of Imther.

Per Galacrustus, an overly exuberant Imperial cartographer: “Did you know that you can find 22 different types of marble in Imther, including the absolutely stunning scarethi? And consider that as a cartographer the ability to identify the sources of each of those types is an absolute joy not to be missed!”

There is a good reason why the Singing Trail of the Conquering Daughter runs direct from Hilltown in Imther to Sylila! And why there is so much fine building in Jillaro.

The heart of Saird along the Oslir and Black Eel rivers were heavy cropland (though likely not as intensive as further north in Dara Happa) and agree with Jeff’s note on wine. The so-called Bison Plains of Vanch north of Bostok were good cattle land. These were also the ancient domains of Beren the Rider and Redaylde so horses are common, though not as fine as those now bred in Sylila (if I recall correctly). Many types of dogs are bred here as this is the home of the ancient Jajalaring dog folk. And of course, the rivers produce a good trade in salted fish.

Most of the trade goes along the Oslir and Black Eel rivers, lesser amounts along the Daughter’s Roads. The Vanchites are known as thieves, a way to describe the fact that the Vanchites happen to finance a lot of trade ventures and control tolls and river traffic through at least this section of the Oslir valley.

[Jeff Richard]

For additional reference, here’s my hand-drawn population of Holay (which is the core of Saird). The final, lovely version of this by Colin Driver will be in the Guide.

[Scott Martin]

This is fantastic. Thank you and the King of Imther! I spent most of my life simply looking at this as imperial flyover country — names on the old map, vaguely “lunarized Orlanthi,” where Yelmalio and Tarshites come from — so the economic context is very helpful.

And naturally this is where the familiar “missionary” Seven Mothers evolved, even if the brains behind the cult structure might have originated farther north. Ancient rumblings indicate that 7M was born in Syllila “in the post-Sheng period,” which is interesting. These people are culturally gifted syncretic magicians, but how did the Lunar Way promulgate here during the initial conquest? Might the fact that Hwarin Dalthippa represents a vestige of an older (mostly antique) pre-Sheng system be part of why she seems like such an outsider and Syllila is so marginalized by the 1620s? Need a new expanded wane history some day!

[Jeff Richard]

Well the Annotated Redline History will be in the next issue of Wyrms Footnotes, complete with the historical maps.

[Scott Martin]

That was easy!

[Harald Smith]

Quote:

Might the fact that Hwarin Dalthippa represents a vestige of an older (mostly antique) pre-Sheng system be part of why she seems like such an outsider and Syllila is so marginalized by the 1620s?

Hwarin followed ancient Sairdite and Sylilan rites in her path to godhood, and represented early Lunar incursions into these provincial regions. But Sylila did become a Satrapy, which the other provinces have not, so it is by no means marginalized. It was one of the Lunar centers that survived the Seleran period. It dominates the Lunar influence in much of Talastar and controls much of the trade via the Oslir and the Daughter’s Roads. Of course there is a lot of competition with the Lunar Provincial Administration in Saird, but that just offers a lot of opportunity for those into intrigue and adventure! 🙂

[Scott Martin]

Quote:

Quote from Harald Smith on September 4, 2013, 23:14

by no means marginalized.

Good point! My flyover prejudices revealed again. How about marginalized “in the extant sources?” 😉

As a frontier religion, 7M makes sense as a Syllilan innovation — after being cut off from the ritual centers of the old empire, they would have learned how to continue the Lunar Way in a more portable format, perhaps stressing right teaching over right praxis. A format that can coincidentally be taught. (The Arrolian Way also evidently survived in “exile” but does not seem to be a proselytizing cult.)

Seems a little sad and revealing that the provinces are still 7M country — junior partners in the Way, according to the extant sources — hundreds of years after the initial conquest. Maybe that’s by design.

[Harald Smith]

I’ve generally pictured the 7M as more of a Sairdite innovation following Hwarin’s conquests and centered at Mirin’s Cross (which became a model Lunar city). Hwarin turned her direct attention to Sylila converting them in her own way through the Moonbear cult (much more closely aligned with the Odalyan influences in the Tribes).

The provinces had several major disruptions. First Sheng, then the rampaging Mad Sultanate, then the Tarshites under Palashee Longaxe. In varied ways, all would have set back Lunar conversion efforts. The Temples of the Reaching Moon and then Hon-eel were the rejuvenation of these efforts. And it could be that the 7M evolved more in this period to align better with provincial thoughts.

Holay and Saird are likely the most Lunarized. Tarsh next, then probably Aggar. Imther has a closer relationship with Sylila than the others, I think, due to her roadway, so there’s some rivalry there between Hwarin and 7M temples for conversions. Vanch, while closest to the Empire, just has a habit of stealing and reworking every odd bit of religion and magic they can and while happy to put on a good show for the Lunars, they haven’t taken any more to Lunar ways than they did to Orlanthi or Dara Happan ways.

I always felt there was a lot more lurking there of interest than ever noted, and spent many years running campaigns in that area.

[Scott Martin]

Quote:

Quote from Harald Smith on September 5, 2013, 00:07
I always felt there was a lot more lurking there of interest than ever noted, and spent many years running campaigns in that area.

Amen there. I am new to the work you all have done in tracking influences from the first age tribes so am still catching up.

[Jeff Richard]

Without engaging in any speculation concerning Hwarin’s Heroquest (except to point out that I am reworking the Redline History right now before diving into the Belintar Book/Gods of Glorantha), I just want to point out some comparative populations:

Province / “Sairdite Population” / Traditional Orlanthi
Aggar / 100k / 120k
Holay / 450k / 150k
Imther / tiny little Imther is too small to be broken down
Tarsh / 60k / 290k
Vanch / 50k / 100k

By “Sairdite”, I mean that rich stew of Solar (including Dara Happan), Storm, and Lunar cults dominated by urban centers. By Traditional Orlanthi I mean Orlanth & Ernalda cults (even if Barntar is the public face of Orlanth), the Lightbringers, and so on. Note that Tarsh is far more Orlanthi than is usually imagined (even if Furthest is very Lunar).

One more factoid (from the Guide):
Redaylda is the Sairdite goddess of horses and sovereignty. She is the red-haired daughter of Ernalda and Orlanth, usually depicted seated upon a throne flanked by two or more horses. Some scholars suggest a connection between her and La-ungariant, the goddess of the Pure Horse People. Redaylda’s husband is another horse god, called Hyalor, or less commonly Beren.

The Queen of Filichet is the high priestess of Redaylda, and also rules the entire kingdom of Holay. The queen wears the magical Necklace of Radiance, taken from Dragon Pass prior to the Dragonkill.

PS: Harold, a lot of this will seem awful familiar, but there have been some changes since we talked about this back in 1998 or so. Greg and I continued to work on Saird over the last fifteen years!

[Scott Martin]

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on September 5, 2013, 05:33
The Queen of Filichet is the high priestess of Redaylda

I shoulda caught that. This is my favorite bit of lore of the month. Did they ever have centaurs in Holay by any chance?

[Jeff Richard]

Nope. No Beast People enclaves in Holay, although there certainly might be the occasional wandering band of centuars from Dragon Pass. But Holay does receive more ink in the Guide than in all previous sources combined.

[Scott Martin]

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on September 5, 2013, 06:16
Nope. No Beast People enclaves in Holay. But Holay does receive more ink in the Guide than in all previous sources combined.

Thanks. Just wondering whether the modern King of Dragon Pass (Saird) rite we know and love had anything to do with Ironhoof or was purely a factor of his wife and her necklace. I guess his horsiness was simply felicitous in this case!

[Jeff Richard]

Ironhoof became King of Dragon Pass by wooing and winning the incarnation of Kero Fin. The Necklace of Enlivenment was once worn by the ranking Ernalda priestess of Dragon Pass (sometimes called Uleria’s Necklace) and kings and heroes competed for her honor, a custom allegedly begun by Ivarne, the wife of Heort.

[David Summers]

There is “Orlanthi” and there is “Olanthi pantheon”. (My Sartar exile, who was alienated from Orlanth, used to object to calling everyone of a Theyalan culture “Orlanthi”.) It is worth nothing that even Tarsh has been in the Lunar empire more than 100 years. Even if the die-hards hadn’t help things be leaving rather than staying and resiting change, the fact is that most people have lived in Lunar Tarsh going back 2 or 3 generations. Even if you keep the old ways, that is a good amount of time to reconcile them with the new (esp. given how syncretic the Lunar Empire is).

And Saird has been Lunar longer than the USA has existed.

[Author]

Posts