Talking with Spirits

[John Trasler]

I wonder if anyone has any enlightened thoughts on talking with spirits? I haven’t found too much in my Glorantha library on this, and I have several questions which would illuminate me in many ways ..

My questions include:

How does a shaman talk with a spirit? Is there a Spirit Speech language which all spirits can understand? If so, why can’t spirits embodied on the mundane plane (ie: living humans) speak that language too? If there is such a language, presumably it’s telepathic in some way?

Could it be that a shaman can only communicate with spirits in their tradition? Or only with spirits on the Spirit Plane?

If there is no universal spirit language, can a shaman communicate in any way with spirits on the mundane plane not embodied in creatures (and therefore able to speak a mundane language)? ie: can a shaman talk with a Well Spirit or a Mountain Spirit, and if so, how?

Thanks for taking the time to read my questions, and I hope someone will have some thoughts to share …

[Peter Metcalfe]

There has been mention in Spiritspeech in hoary sources but I do not believe that to be a universal spirit language.

My current thinking is that communicating with spirits is an intrinsic part of spirit magic (ie it can’t be used for spirits in the material world no matter how much of a God Learner you are) and that ease in talking with spirits is also reflective of the ease in persuading them to work with you. For example Bob, your late uncle, has no difficulty in telling you what he wants and so allying with him is comparatively easy. The Giant Storkbiorn might be baffling obscure and so much harder to ally with.

[Simon Phipp]

If you want to speak to a ghost and could not communicate while the person was alive, then why should you suddenly be able to communicate with the person just because he has died? So, if your shaman knows Praxian and Tradetalk and the dead troll could only speak Darktongue, why should you be able to speak with it?

Having said that, a shaman is expert at controlling all spirits, so should be able to interact with any spirit, no matter its origin. So, I like the idea of a Spiritspeech, which is rune-derived. What it would allow the shaman to do would be to make simple commands – attack that person, jump into this binding enchantment, go away and never bother me again. It would probably not allow communication beyond this, but might allow some sense of conveying of raw concepts – fear, anger, love or danger.

But, if you are happier that any shaman can deal with any spirit, then by all means use Spiritspeech as a tool for doing so. I would guess that was its original use.

[John Trasler]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I do want a shaman to have some ability to negotiate with spirits, even on the mundane plane, but I don’t want Spiritspeech as a replacement for Tradetalk.

I am thinking along these lines. Spiritspeech would be a very simple language, perhaps a little more complex than Simon suggests so that there could be some degree of cooperation, but nowhere near as sophisticated even as Tradetalk. However, it couldn’t be used on spirits bound to a living being (perhaps the sensory inputs experienced by the living drown out the very quiet Spiritspeech). It should be rune-based, and telepathic so it can be used to talk with spirits that have no way of making sounds.

So, if the shaman and a spirit share a common language, they can talk to each other. If they do not, they can have a very limited conversation using Spiritspeech.

For this purpose, a spirit can be engaged with Spiritspeech if: a) the spirit and shaman are both in the spirit world, or b) the spirit is disembodied in the mundane world, or c) the spirit is possessing another creature (overt or covert), or d) the spirit is part of a natural feature which has no senses (mountains, wells, rivers). The shaman would, of course, have to know the spirit was there.

Spirits cannot be engaged with Spiritspeech if: a) they are part of a creature with senses (humans, trolls, horses, trees, etc), or b) are bound within a fetish or other token which prevents spirit interactions.

I like this approach because it explains how shamans communicate with spirits, it allows shaman to negotiate with possessing spirits, and it allows shaman to question nature spirits.

Of course, there may not be much ground for negotiation with a disease spirit, nor for philosophical debate with a daffodil …

[Jeff Richard]

Spiritspeech is not a human language. It is a form of glossolalia, an ecstatic state whereby one can communicate with spirits.

[Alistair Jones]

ITRW there are a number of different approaches to this.

Franz Boas on Baffin Island recorded an angakoq (shaman) using a ‘peculiar language, which consists to a great extent of archaic roots… some… in the language of Alaskan tribes.’

Dioszegi upon recording a Siberian shaman-song describes his voice as ‘sputtering…conversational…a song again, then it was a monologue…a soft whistle… like the neighing of a horse.’

Hitchcock notes the moment of possession for the Nepalese shaman Sakrante as ‘instead of singing he forces air loudly through his lips, shouts unintelligible syllables, and groans.’ However, when he acts as medium, the spirit speaks clearly – and insultingly – to the listeners.

The muga songs of the Korean mudangs have been interpreted as being the language of the educated classes 60 years previously, full of Sino-Korean expressions.

Elaide states that ‘the existence of a specific secret language has been verified among the Lapps, the Ostyak, the Chukchee, the Yakut and the Tungus… the Seamang Pygmy hala talks with the Cenoi (celestial spirits) in their language… the Batak shaman uses the ‘language of the spirits’.

Possibly the best known shamanic practitioner to western culture wrote of the necessity of the inner spirit’s attitude being correct, even in preference to mastery of the languages used to communicate with other spirits, otherwise all attempts at such communication were meaningless. “Though I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.”

[Alistair Jones]

Of course, going back in time to the days of RQ2, Firshala possessed the ability of automatic Mindspeech with any who worshipped her.

[Jeff Richard]

And all of those are speaking Spirit Speech. The spirits understand them all.

[Alistair Jones]

Indeed, Jeff, but I do wonder whether Paul of Tarsus has it right, and whether the important thing is how devoutly you stand within your religious tradition keyword, rather than how proficiently a skill is enacted. This could also explain the hostility of some types of spirit, if the practitioner simply ‘feels’ wrong on a spiritual level.

[David Cake]

In rules terms, I think Spiritspeech is (usually?) not a language – it is part of the Spirit Rune in HQ2, part of the Binding skill in RQ.

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