Sartar, a cultural crossroads not a backwater

[Charles]

Quote:

Corflu is a miserable failure of a port city.

City?
Cur’s Flu does not qualify as a city. Pestilential swamp! And maybe, if I was generous, a hamlet. And I’ll only be generous when I get home to Glamour and that only until I’ve drunk all my back pay. And only the Goddess knows what chance I have of getting my back pay. Now gimme more beer so I can try to forget…

[Scott Martin]

Test test. The timing of Prince Sartar (first decades of Lunar reconstruction) is nothing short of miraculous. Hwarin Dalthippa already built her roads and integrated much of old Saird into the Lunar economy; their markets then point north and feed luxuries upward. But she can only go so far and then the Seleran interlude interrupts any further expansion plans until the late 1400s. Sartar gets there first, hammers the “golden spike” to complete the shipping network, move trade all the way from Ralios (Fronela is under the ban) and make his people extremely rich and an extremely attractive target. A few years earlier, there would have been nothing but trouble in the north and the Empire would have had time before the Nights of Horror to squeeze him out of competition.

I think my follow-up questions would be (a) from the Sairdite experts, what’s wonderful there to trade beyond furstones (b) what traces of this material wealth remain in Sartar? Previously I thought much of the “cosmopolitan” chattel there was leftover tribute from the EWF era and brought to market in the usual ways through tomb robbers, ruin reclamation, “adventurers.” If the gilded age was more recent, what exactly did they bring in? (Iron and lore.) What’s still there? (Iron and lore.)

Testing format here.

[Joerg Baumgartner]

River traffic on the Creekstream River works fine downriver, but is a pain without serious magical support when moving upriver. The Skyfall provides about the same amount of freshwater as the entire Amazonas catchment basin, if I had to make anestimate, but does so at much greater slope, and in a narrower channel. My personal image of the river is that of the Saltstraumen near Bodoe between the tides, with the middle of the waterway about 5 feet above the sides, and heavy turbulences along the shores. I had the opportunity to watch arusty steamer flash past me at about 50mph just to kep rudder control. At the same time a boat with 4×90 horse strength outboard motors didn’t manage to get more than slow walking speed against that current.

Transshipping to Karse makes some sense, but Karse has a seagoing port every bit as accessible as Nochet if you don’t travel by Waertagi cityship. Rather than going through customs twice, I would expect a majority of captains to concentrate on only one of these ports.

[Roko Joko]

“Corflu is a miserable failure of a port city.”
Can you say why?

FWIW I just noticed that the guide draft v8 says Alda-Chur is on the main Lunar-HC trade route, but also characterizes the Grazelands as “astride the rich trade route between the Lunar Empire and the Holy Country.” The phrasing of the latter statement implies that the Grazelands route is the main one, making the two statements contradictory. Given the above, I don’t think the latter is accurate; it’s astride *a* trade route and *near* the main trade route, but not astride the main one.

Also, I’ve been wondering. On Earth, what did bronze/iron age civilizations do when they had to ship goods across cascades? I’m wondering how often they would
(a) maintain a separate set of boats/barges for each navigable section of the river,
versus (b) portage the boats/barges,
or (c) do something with locks and canals.
Cascades look like a significant factor in the northwestern part of the Grazelands, as well as near the Building Wall. The rivers there have rough spots in multiple places.

That said, in spite of the rivers being broken I find it hard to see why, based only on the map, the Grazelands route would be worse, because more of it is by river. (I’m not saying it’s anyone’s job to prove that it should be. But I am saying that without more information I’m inclined to vary my Glorantha.)

[Jeff Richard]

Well of course it goes both ways. Trade goods from Esrolia (which also means trade goods from Ralios and Seshnela thanks to the Manirian Road) go through Sartar to the Lunar Empire. That means stuff like gems, wine, spice, herbs, iron (most of the world’s iron comes from Seshnela), cloth, glass, kafl leaf (tobacco), bronze, gods blood crystals, and so on.

As for Saird itself, it probably is a source of bronze (lots of Air gods fought there), copper (lots of Earth cults there), better wine than in the Heartlands (but not as good as in Esrolia or Vinavale), and good horses. Also good redsmiths there, probably better than what you get in the Heartlands. There’s also dwarf goods from the Imther Mountains and Jord’s Eye, plus furs from the Elder Wilds.

[Jeff Richard]

Quote:

Quote from Joerg Baumgartner on September 3Transshipping to Karse makes some sense, but Karse has a seagoing port every bit as accessible as Nochet if you don’t travel by Waertagi cityship. Rather than going through customs twice, I would expect a majority of captains to concentrate on only one of these ports.

Karse is a much much smaller port than Nochet. And without the amenities. And without the tradition, the magic, or the money.

[Jeff Richard]

Quote:

Quote from Roko Joko on September 3, 2013, 17:27
“Corflu is a miserable failure of a port city.”
Can you say why?

FWIW I just noticed that the guide draft v8 says Alda-Chur is on the main Lunar-HC trade route, but also characterizes the Grazelands as “astride the rich trade route between the Lunar Empire and the Holy Country.” The phrasing of the latter statement implies that the Grazelands route is the main one, making the two statements contradictory. Given the above, I don’t think the latter is accurate; it’s astride *a* trade route and *near* the main trade route, but not astride the main one.

From the perspective of the Guide, Dragon Pass is astride the rich trade route between the Lunar Empire and the Holy Country. There are two routes through the Dragon Pass region: the northern route, which goes through Alda-Chur and then through Sartar; and the southern route over Dragon Pass itself. The northern route is the main one, but the southern route is plenty rich.

Jeff

[Jeff Richard]

Quote:

Quote from Roko Joko on September 3, 2013, 17:27
“Corflu is a miserable failure of a port city.”
Can you say why?

Well we know it was a miserable failure, since Pavis tells us it was. In 1614, the port was so poor that one merchant offered to trade all his goods to Gunda for a place on her crew. She refused.
In 1618-1619, the city was used as a staging ground for the Lunar attack on Karse. That was probably the high point of the city.
In 1621, the city was sacked by Argrath and the Cradle defenders, although there was little plunder.
In 1624 or 1625, the city falls again to Argrath, this time for good.

Why this was the case probably has much to deal with what merchant ships are sailing along the Rozgali between the Holy Country and Teshnos. They are mostly Kethaelan ships, with a well established route. Corflu doesn’t offer much, except an expensive place to beach the ship (well actually dock it, but same point).

[Scott Martin]

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on September 3, 2013, 18:21
As for Saird itself, it probably is a source of bronze (lots of Air gods fought there), copper (lots of Earth cults there), better wine than in the Heartlands (but not as good as in Esrolia or Vinavale), and good horses. Also good redsmiths there, probably better than what you get in the Heartlands. There’s also dwarf goods from the Imther Mountains and Jord’s Eye, plus furs from the Elder Wilds.

Thanks — this is useful in understanding just how the Empire changed in the relatively brief consolidation period between the Conquering Daughter’s triumphs and the first Seleran invasions. By the way, is this boring to people? Except for the occasional dispatches from Imther, I’ve only run across fragments on Saird. We know the region produces spectacular magicians but a lot of work needs to be done.

[Harald Smith]

Quote:

Quote from Scott Martin on September 3, 2013, 22:29

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on September 3, 2013, 18:21
As for Saird itself, it probably is a source of bronze (lots of Air gods fought there), copper (lots of Earth cults there), better wine than in the Heartlands (but not as good as in Esrolia or Vinavale), and good horses. Also good redsmiths there, probably better than what you get in the Heartlands. There’s also dwarf goods from the Imther Mountains and Jord’s Eye, plus furs from the Elder Wilds.

Thanks — this is useful in understanding just how the Empire changed in the relatively brief consolidation period between the Conquering Daughter’s triumphs and the first Seleran invasions. By the way, is this boring to people? Except for the occasional dispatches from Imther, I’ve only run across fragments on Saird. We know the region produces spectacular magicians but a lot of work needs to be done.

As Jeff noted, bronze and copper are both prevalent – Saird was a significant battleground between Storm and Solar cultures fighting over local Earth. Certainly at the Hill of Gold in Vanch you can find Fire Crystals and likely some trace amounts of gold.

My old notes on Imtherian trade were the following: Imther exports preserved foods (apples, cheeses, and dried or salted meats), cider, leather and linen, stone, and metal (bronze and copper). It imports exotic food and wine, salt and spices, bronze plate armor (whose manufacture is prohibited in the provincial kingdoms), and slaves for the mines and quarries.

And, of course, dwarf goods (such as the furstones) for which trade is strictly controlled and through the King of Imther.

Per Galacrustus, an overly exuberant Imperial cartographer: “Did you know that you can find 22 different types of marble in Imther, including the absolutely stunning scarethi? And consider that as a cartographer the ability to identify the sources of each of those types is an absolute joy not to be missed!”

There is a good reason why the Singing Trail of the Conquering Daughter runs direct from Hilltown in Imther to Sylila! And why there is so much fine building in Jillaro.

The heart of Saird along the Oslir and Black Eel rivers were heavy cropland (though likely not as intensive as further north in Dara Happa) and agree with Jeff’s note on wine. The so-called Bison Plains of Vanch north of Bostok were good cattle land. These were also the ancient domains of Beren the Rider and Redaylde so horses are common, though not as fine as those now bred in Sylila (if I recall correctly). Many types of dogs are bred here as this is the home of the ancient Jajalaring dog folk. And of course, the rivers produce a good trade in salted fish.

Most of the trade goes along the Oslir and Black Eel rivers, lesser amounts along the Daughter’s Roads. The Vanchites are known as thieves, a way to describe the fact that the Vanchites happen to finance a lot of trade ventures and control tolls and river traffic through at least this section of the Oslir valley.

[Jeff Richard]

Quote:

Thanks — this is useful in understanding just how the Empire changed in the relatively brief consolidation period between the Conquering Daughter’s triumphs and the first Seleran invasions. By the way, is this boring to people? Except for the occasional dispatches from Imther, I’ve only run across fragments on Saird. We know the region produces spectacular magicians but a lot of work needs to be done.

I’d be happy to chat away about Saird, and I am sure Harald would be as well, but let’s create a new thread for that!

UPDATE: Already switched over to this thread: http://www.glorantha.com/forums/glorantha-group1/general-forum1/a-few-thoughts-on-saird-thread29.0/

Jeff

[David Summers]

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on September 3, 2013, 11:31
Yep, that was exactly my point. Goods going to or coming from the Lunar Empire get loaded to or offloaded from boats at Furthest. The Tarsh Road/Sartar Royal Road is the main overland route for goods going between the Lunar Empire and the Holy Country. And since nearly ALL goods going to/from the Lunar Empire from/to Ralios, Seshnela, Fronela, Teshnos, the East Islands, and Pamaltela goes through Nochet, you get an idea how important that route is.

Fronela?

Is there no route west from Carmania around the Kingdom of War?

[Jeff Richard]

Yes, but until 1613 the west shore of the Sweet Sea was completely closed by the Ban. That means that route only had seven years to develop before the Kingdom of War seized Perfe. I suspect that the vast majority of goods from Loskalm come to the Empire from the southern route. I suspect that changes pretty dramatically in the next ten years.

[David Summers]

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on September 5, 2013, 09:28
Yes, but until 1613 the west shore of the Sweet Sea was completely closed by the Ban. That means that route only had seven years to develop before the Kingdom of War seized Perfe. I suspect that the vast majority of goods from Loskalm come to the Empire from the southern route. I suspect that changes pretty dramatically in the next ten years.

Ah. We play “post ban”. Given the distances, I think that (post ban) there would a route south of Perfe if it was at all reasonably possible.

(Our party just had reason to go from the Empire to Loskalm, but we were pretty high level characters in a hurry to save the world and we just used magic.)

[Jeff Richard]

The point is that from 1582 to 1613, the ONLY way to get goods from Loskalm into the Lunar Empire was by the Southern route, which is more than enough time for well-established merchant networks to develop. Even if it is less efficient in the abstract, it is still going to be the dominant route until the new route becomes established. And before that happens, the Kingdom of War makes it increasingly costly (and dangerous) to use the Janube River.

But this is the sort of thing a bunch of Etyries characters might have a great (and profitable) adventure with!

[Author]

Posts