Proto-Grotaron Sighting?

[Scott Martin]

While this Lunar depiction of Jannisor’s assault on the Crater found in Heroes 4 [1984] is a revelation on many levels, the most striking figure is probably the giant crossing the bridge ahead of the sable troop. Identified as the daemon Karash’arll, this entity looks to be about 9 feet tall at the shoulder, carries a massive bow and receives unusual artistic treatment around the hands and upper torso as well as a peculiar formation rising out of the “head.”

Karash’arll is described as Jannisor’s “divine guide” in “Red Moon in Prax.” More detail on him and the rest of the entities depicted here can be found at http://moondesign.glorantha.com/library/history/hle-1wane.html#lunar-vase

So who was Karash’arll? In some Gloranthas, Jannisor may have been working with Maidstone Archers, possibly brought in via Charg or through disgruntled Carmanian factions. (The Ban would not go up for another two centuries, so the Fronelan frontier is wide open.) In any event, their relationship seems unusually personal and even tutelary, although it’s always possible he was bought with some combination of the “Darjiin gold and aldryami food” that fueled the rebellion.

Where do the Maidstone Archers come from in the early development of Glorantha? I know there’s a grotaron-like figure on the MOLAD counter sheet Rick found in the files, but how did we get from there to the Elder Secrets write-up and thus to today?

[Harald Smith]

Quote:

So who was Karash’arll?

Most likely an underworld demon that Jannisor allied during a heroquest. Jannisor was a hero from the Imther/Vanch region and there’s nothing to date to suggest any connection with the distant Maidstone Mountains, Charg, or Carmania. Jannisor likely has connections with the dog-folk of Saird and their god Jajagapa, the central figure with the net under the bridge in the vase illustration. Karash’arll may have been associated with Jajagapa as well (the art in the Red Moon in Prax article shows Karash’arll as more dog-headed with demon horns) or may prove to be distinct. Another possibility is that he was brought out of Alkoth, another nearby underworld locus.

[Scott Martin]

Quote:

Quote from Harald Smith on September 22, 2013, 01:49
Jannisor was a hero from the Imther/Vanch region and there’s nothing to date to suggest any connection with the distant Maidstone Mountains, Charg, or Carmania.

You’re definitely the source of record on all things Jannisorian, so if the Heroes figure feels more like the dog guy in Footprints to you than a Maidstone Archer, it works for me. The tail was giving me trouble anyway and for all I knew the dog guy was a grotesque broo of sorts.

HOWEVER, the presence of Jajagapa under the bridge indicates to me that if Tattis Clayshaper wanted to give Karash’arll a dog head, he would have done so — unless that characteristic had been erased for propagandistic purposes.

(Beyond that, while we don’t know much about the Footprints picture, the vase seems to draw on recent eyewitness accounts if not first-person experience, so I am reluctant to doubt its accuracy.)

Maybe the question is whether one of the spiritual flash points of the war was over whether the dog god would be “Dara Happan” (borrowed/adopted) or Sairdite. Karash’arll clearly fights on the Sairdite side while Jajagapa lurks below. We know how it turns out, with only one dog-headed god and Karash’arll a slave in the underworld.

As you recall, Jannisor worked extensively with the magic of the net and Jajagapa is the net god. Who were his patrons again? Agreed that it’s silly to suspect his tutelary daemon was a Maidstone Archer as we now understand those people, but maybe in 1984 the understanding of grotarons was much less bright.

Are there Imtherian versions of the Holder and the Terror who might also have been placed here to reflect the battle for Sairdite religious identity? I suspect we will disagree on how Molanni functions in the lowlands but as a Gor Annara may have sisters in the provinces.

[Martin Helsdon]

Picture from Tales?

https://plus.google.com/photos/105549364965234049989/albums/5890787877542971377/5890789150830444178?banner=pwa&pid=5890789150830444178&oid=105549364965234049989

[Harald Smith]

Quote:

Picture from Tales?

Yes, that is the one.

Quote:

HOWEVER, the presence of Jajagapa under the bridge indicates to me that if Tattis Clayshaper wanted to give Karash’arll a dog head, he would have done so — unless that characteristic had been erased for propagandistic purposes.

At this point, I’d just say that Karash’arll is a very large, horned and tailed ‘monster’ who is most likely from the Underworld (and was returned there by the Lunars). The illustration may have merged Karash’arll and Jajagapa into a single figure or perhaps is ‘truer’ to form than the vase painter. That Karash’arll carries a bow suggests he may be some sort of ‘hunter’ and I think that fits well as a servant of Jajagapa but could be linked to some other ancient darkness forces that emerged after the fall of Yelm.

[Scott Martin]

Thanks for the patience. Full disclosure, I am not a grotaron fan so was simply jolted to see a creature with a similar form factor doing something historically interesting. I hope the follow-up questions are far more interesting however!

Quote:

Quote from Harald Smith on September 22, 2013, 14:43
I think that fits well as a servant of Jajagapa but could be linked to some other ancient darkness forces that emerged after the fall of Yelm.

Those ancient darkness forces seem well represented in the “below” field on the vase. Striking how Holder — the only figure firmly described as a terror to the non-Lunar — faces outward from the “Lunar” side to confront the other two, whose facings are more aligned with the invaders.

Knowing what you know about Jajagapa, who was he really summoned here to take? Who called him? The Dara Happans are in revolt and the Sairdites are invading. He looks up toward Jannisor but the body language is aimed at Holder, who bars the way. Likewise, if Annara has a friend here, I would look toward the Sairdites or the aldryami.

Are these Lunar hell gods at this time or pre-lunarized entities teetering on a “recognition” of their own? The text is remarkably ambiguous. I now consider Tattis Clayshaper and/or the painter in his shop a genius, even if they couldn’t be bothered to work in grotarons.

[Harald Smith]

Quote:

Knowing what you know about Jajagapa, who was he really summoned here to take? Who called him? The Dara Happans are in revolt and the Sairdites are invading. He looks up toward Jannisor but the body language is aimed at Holder, who bars the way.

Jajagapa was a god of the Underworld for both Sairdites and Dara Happans (he makes an appearance on the Gods Wall as well). Think of him as a psychopomp who guides those who worship him (the dog folk of Saird) but otherwise drags the unwilling dead to Hell in his net (and he has his pack of Hell Hounds to aid him). Since this is a battle, it’s natural for him to be there but probably invoked by Jannisor to ensure that Lunars who are killed, stay dead. The Holder may serve a similar purpose for the Lunars.

Annara Gor is Goddess of the Third Hell to the DH and also appears on the Gods Wall, so I suspect she has probably been invoked/summoned by DH – maybe they think she has some powers against the Red Moon. However, since the text related to the vase notes ‘the Red Goddess called her the “Guardian of Secrets”’, I suspect that the Lunars were able to reveal some unsuspected power about her, perhaps during the battle.

As Jannisor’s wars are in the First Wane and the Lunars had not solidified control over DH yet, they are probably pre-Lunar entities. But the Lunars certainly adopt or reveal new secrets about deities over time (as with the Twin Stars), so could do so here too.

[Author]

Posts