Grimoires, grimoires, grimoires…

[Niall]

So I have a Llankor Mhy sage, he wants a grimoire at chargen.

Is the Grimoire one of my five abilities that I get to choose in chargen? So it starts at 13 yes?

Can I stick it under my Law Rune as a breakout?

Could it be a Companion and sentient? A talking, walking tome of trouble?

[Mark Mohrfield]

I think that a Lhankor Mhy can use the Law Rune as the Grimoire rating. As for having the Grimoire for sidekick, I don’t see why not.

[Robin Mitra]

Is the Grimoire one of my five abilities that I get to choose in chargen? So it starts at 13 yes?

– A grimoire is a keyword. You need two heropoints to raise it by one point.

Can I stick it under my Law Rune as a breakout?

– No, that would be too easy. A grimoire is its own keyword and as such cannot be a breakout of another keyword.

Could it be a Companion and sentient? A talking, walking tome of trouble?

– And you call it the Necronomicon and you will lose your sanity ability by reading it? 🙂 Well, I would say a talking, walking, sentient being is not typical for a book, but YGWV.

[Robin Mitra]

And as a Lhankor Mhy you will need the Alien Combination Machine to cleanse your grimoires. I don’t think it has ever been detailed how many there are and how they work, so it’s up to you how difficult that is.

[Matthias Hunger]

Actually, the example character of a Lhankor Mhy in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure, Jorjera Latish, has her grimoire as a breakout ability of her Law rune (and it would then be raised for 2 HP per 1 point, but that would be pointless, as you can just raise the Law rune for 2 HP and all grimoire rating(s) with it), and her four starting spells from it at the rating of the grimoire, which is identical to the rating of the Law rune (at least at the beginning, unless the rating of the breakout ability is raised separately).
BTW Robin, Rodrik’s grimoire works just like this 😉

I don’t think that a grimoire would make much sense as a sentient book. However, initiates and devotees can gain Divine Companions (see Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, p.88), who have material bodies. I think it makes perfect sense to have one of the Gray Ones residing in a book, giving advice to the Sage either by writing in itself or by speaking/whispering. So then you would have one sentient book and one grimoire.

We already had a discussion on how grimoires work for theists like Lhankor Mhys or Irripi Ontors a few months back.

[Robin Mitra]

I could be wrong here, but I would rather say the character sheet in the Pavis book is wrong.

1. Besides that character sheet I can find no reference that grimoires are breakouts for Lhankor Mhy.
2. The rulebook clearly states that grimoires are keywords (and the character sheet indicates that as well), and keywords don’t have breakout keywords.
3. The rulebook clearly states that grimoires have their own ratings. And that they are raised individually.
4. It would make Lhankor Mhy sages extremely more potent in wizadry than sorcerers from the West, what does not seem to be reasonable to me.

BTW Rodrik is a megalomaniac, who had “Spear Fighting” as his best ability for most of his carrier.

[Niall]

I think Grimoires that use a Rune other than your Law rune would be it’s own Keyword. But when using the Eternal book and it’s copies you would use your Law rune. As for talking, walking, sentient not being typical for a book, yes very true and an extreme example, but what character wants to be normal?

I like the idea of the allied spirit in a book, which might as well be the Grimoire in question and like Allied spirits back in the day they can use the spells. The Allied spirit’s rune being the Law rune.

[Edan Jones]

It may not be Lhankor Mhy, or concerning a Rune, but the rules for Flintnail cultists allow you to gain a grimoire as a breakout from your stonemason keyword. This would suggest that you can nest keywords within each other.

[Peter Metcalfe]

Check out @davidscott responses in the following thread.

http://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/purchasing-grimoires-in-chargen/

[Niall]

Whoops that was me who started the last thread! Old age is showing 🙂

[David Scott]

Thanks Peter @metcalph, this presents a good time to fill you in on one of the updates you will find in HeroQuest: Glorantha. If you want to start using it now, it won’t mess up your game.

Grimoires key off a rune (or other keyword if you want to be complicated) and are breakouts.
Spells are listed beneath the grimoire but have no value.
Individual spells still exist

You can key different grimoires off different relevent runes.

Here’s Makor the Strong redone

Runes
Earth 13
Stasis 13
Law 1w
Grimoire: Secrets of the Stone +1
Fingers as lewis
Hands as cockscomb

Grimoire: Master of the Faceless King +1
Harmony of the Parts
Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach

Dwarf spells
Split Rock 13
Freeze Flood Water 13

And Jorjar Latish

Runes
Air 14
Truth 1W
Law 1W
Torvald Fragments Grimoire +1
Analyze Magic
identify Runic Power
Read Item’s History
Reveal Secret

(plant) Summon single fruit (Spell) 13
(earth) Detect snakes (Spell) 13
(anti-chaos) Kill Broo (Spell) 13

[Niall]

Great thank you!

[Robin Mitra]

That means you could raise your Law rune and all your grimoires at once with just 2 HP? Sorcerers must be very powerful, indeed.

What happens if Jorjar Latish would raise her Law rune to 11W and she would write a grimoire that includes the spell “Summon single fruit”? Would the spell’s rating jump from 13 to 12W?

[Matthias Hunger]

Sorcerers must be very powerful, indeed.

Keep in mind that grimoires are rather rare; not every sage has a collection of 93 books at their disposal… Also, it is pretty much the only use you can make of the Law rune, as was empirically established.

I’m not sure there are written rules for theist sorcerers to write new spells. Western wizards go to the respective Essential node and discover something about the true nature of the grimoire, letting them deduce new spells (or at least they used to). So Jorjar would somehow discover something about fruits in the essential nature of the Law rune/Torvald grimoire, which I find unlikely. And this would, in my opinion, be a new spell, albeit with the same effect as the old one. However, Essential nodes seem weird places for theists to hang around, they would most likely make an analogous discovery in Lhankor Mhy’s study or Irripi Ontor’s place on the moon. Or they just don’t “get” grimoires enough to come up with their own spells. YGWV.

“Putting” the allied spirit/Divine Companion in a grimoire seems certainly possible; however, it also looks like putting all one’s eggs in one basket…

[David Scott]

@robin-mitra, that’s right 2hp in the Law Rune will raise your effectiveness in your grimoires keyed off it. The same as with all spirit magic users – increase the spirit rune (or what ever your spirit magic is keyed off) and it will increase the effectiveness of all your charms. Likewise with rune magic, increase your gods rune(s) and it increases the effectiveness of all feats and breakouts. All brought into line now.

As for Jorjar and the summon fruit spell, effectively yes. But the grimoire would have to have the right runes and would cost to buy. Don’t forget she would already be using her Law Rune to augment the spell, so it’s not like it would ever be at it’s base value.

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