Dwarven Technology

[B. Cephalus]

Hello,

I was reading the Guide and the adventures in the Sartar Companion, and I can’t understand what technological level the Dwarves are supposed to have.
The Guide says the aeolipile is one of their most advanced steam machines, and they don’t seem to have any kind of engine; all their big machines (such as the stoneships and the Capstan of Curustus) are moved by animal power. This would put them at about a Hellenistic/Roman level, which would be consistent with them being an advanced Iron Age society in a Bronze Age wider world.

But there are also passages that seem to suggest a more advanced, “steampunk” technology. For example, the copper dwarves are said to “manufacture the special magical conduits which purvey energy to all the parts of a dwarf factory”, which seems to imply that they know and use electricity. The “Dwarven Constructs” box on page 84 mentions clockwork, a technology which in our world was only perfected in the 16th century.

So how advanced is their technology, after all? Do their cities have hot and cold running water? Gaslight? Forced ventilation? Would a dwarven engineer carry a slide rule? Or even just a pencil?

My personal explanation is that they can understand and create Iron Age technology, but the more advanced machines are actually relics of the Gods Age that the dwarwes are slowly trying to understand again; a sort of Renaissance that’s slowed down by the loss of the True Mostali and their own dogmatism. They have a technological outlook, but not (yet?) a scientific one.

Another interpretation could be that their technology just cannot be compared to our own, because the physical laws of Glorantha are completely different. Their automata could be powered, say, by glowing green rocks, and they might use dinosaurs to wind the Capstan for magical/mythical reasons.

So, what is the official interpretation, if there is one?

[Edan Jones]

I’d just like to say, that even if it looks like technology, this doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t still working via magic. Take the infamous Nidan Flintlocks for example: do they work because the flint hits the pan to create sparks as a mechanical process; or instead is the flint creating the spark because they contain fire or lightning, like the burning flints of Oakfed, or Orlanthi Thunderstones? Is there actually any difference involved?

IMG, dwarves are able to build extensive lighting systems, ventilation ducts, and such, although these things will be based on magic as much as anything else. The ventilation systems using sylphs to remove smoke and stale air from the dwarven cities through chimneys (like in the Haunted Ruins of Sartar), and the lighting systems being glass orbs containing bound salamanders (also serving as a defence mechanism if intruders break them. Trolls often being large enough to break the fragile orbs accidentally when crawling through mostali tunnels)

[B. Cephalus]

So, closer to my second interpretation, I’d say.

Still, it would be useful to know better what dwarven “technology” can or cannot do. After all, we have some kind of real-world analogue for most human cultures, so as to inform the players’ expectations. Of course, doing so is much more difficult for the Elder Races…

[Alistair Jones]

I think that this is not only a situation of YGWV, but that the variability is essential to the tale.
Nobody should be able to anticipate what a Mostali engine can do, or truly understand how it does it.
The different types of Mostali will have their own terms and references for the processes their arts utilise and enable, but these will not necessarily mesh in a systematic way.
Therefore it is up to the Referee to describe what happens, but not how it happens.
Trying to understand Mostali processes strikes me as very God Learner-ish, and punishable in the same way. (Continental destruction, mass psychoses etc.)
Beware.
The Dwarf Cometh.

[Robin Mitra]

I agree with Alistair. Your Glorantha will vary and you are free to give the Mostali any technology you like. All this is just in my humble opinion:

1. When your player characters witness a dwarven construct, should they realise that it is Mostali? Maybe. Should they understand how it works? Probably not. Take your example of the gaslight. Would a Hsunchen understand it anyway? Would she not call it “magic” nonetheless?

2. Roleplaying lives by the fact that the players have only fragmented information. And that they are eager to find out more. If they already know what the Mostali can and cannot do, where is the fun to learn more about them? Surprise them, tease them, puzzle them.

3. I think it would be really difficult to find real world analogies for Glorantha. For example the Lunars, are they more like European, Persian or Indian culture? I would not dare to say. Furthermore would it help the players to understand Glorantha better if you’d give them analogies? In my experience the opposite is the case. If I tell the players “Your culture is like X in the real world” they already have so much information in mind that it A) blocks their interest in exploring Glorantha and B) might be completely wrong in a different scene in the future.

4. I do not even use words like “dwarf” in my games (or elf, troll or crocodile for that matter), because it would immediately create a picture in the players’ minds that is strongly influenced by Tolkien and Hollywood and not by Glorantha.

If your players encounter new people, don’t explain – describe! Let them draw their own conclusions.

[Joerg Baumgartner]

My take on Mostali “technology” (better term: artifice and alchemy)

Force generation: The mostali rely on water power and harnessed muscular power, usually that of constructs like jolanti, metal or rock beasts (as described in Anaxial’s Roster), or themselves. Some mostali enclaves are known to use slaves or beasts, too:

Isidilian, the (quicksilver mostali) dwarf of Dwarf Mine on the upper Creekstream River, employs humans – who are descended from survivors of the Dragonkill Isidilian sheltered – for crewing both his cannon cult artillery and for crewing his alchemical transformer, a device on several wagons, drawn by blind cave oxen (presumably aquired along with the humans).

The Slon Decamony has tamed local humans and dinosaurs for their surface activities, including the dinosaurs labouring away at the Capstan in Jrustela.

Metallurgy: The mostali (more specifically: the iron mostali) know the secret of producing and working iron, and even how to work magic in its vicinity. Their real metallurgists (the brass mostali and their clay dwarf caste equivalent) use the other runic metals, though, and use them for the production of gears, fittings etc. I don’t think that they have anything with properties like the spring steel used in pocket watches of the European 16th century, but they would be able to produce anything the Persian artificers of the 13th century built, and of course their crossbows will use some metal with properties similar to spring steel, too – probably a consequence of lamination and enchantments.

Mining: If you can get a hand on Georgius Agricola’s De Re Metallica, anything you see in there could be done by the mostali. Up to refining metals out of non-metallic ores that require more than simple smelting. Rock mostali can do more than swing a hammer and place a chisel. They can analyze rock stratigraphy, intuit the best ways to cut or split a rock, and even make portions of a rock temporarily return to life in order to shape and mold it (or order some elemental force to do so). Their clay dwarf equivalents will have to rely on the tools of their trade more than the original mostali.

I sometimes wonder what they are using to support their excavations. Originally, they had no access to timber, so they must have found ways to provide supporting pillars and arches out of the excavation material on hand.

Water removal and ventilation are big issues in any subterranean environment. Using bound elementals is one way to deal with this, but I like to think that these are limited to emergency measures or backed up by mechanical artifices able to do that job.

Mechanics: They are familiar with cog wheels and gears, preferring metal pieces or even carved rock over grown materials like timber. Given the order of descent, the lead mostali will provide a lot of hydraulic solutions where modern engineers would use gears. They will use pressurized air to move actuators, too. Maybe even steam.

I don’t see the mostali making significant use of wheels on the ground for transportation. Think chain conveyors instead.

Chemistry/Alchemy: quicksilver mostali are masters of vitriols (what modern chemists call acids, bleaches or saline solutions), pigments, growing of crystals, raffination of all manner of material (including grown stuff). Their approach is that any material will benefit from raffination and refinement – which is also applied to their food. The higher the degree of processing some food has undergone, the more palatable or nourishing it will be to them.

Rocks as a source of nourishment aren’t unusual in Glorantha. Mostali, uz and some seafolk are able to take nourishment out of certain (often formerly alive) sorts of rock.

Most clay mostali also process grown stuff for food, which they harvest (preferrably using constructs or slaves) or trade for. IMO they also refine the water that intrudes their underground dwellings, robbing it of any nutritional value before using it to wash away any (often toxic) refuse that has gathered. We know that life in the seas thrives on stuff carried off the land by rivers. IMO mostali would use such a source of accumulated useful stuff, too.

The Jrustelan Capstan illustrations in the Guide mention energy leads requiring maintenance. Energy traps managing spirits and elementals figure already in the earliest stories about Vadel and his dealings with the mostali. From traps to conductors isn’t that much of a conceptual leap. Modern people will think about electricity being channeled there, but the mostali probably refer to a purer form of energy. The energy IMO is fed into wards that create field effects usable in magical rituals.

I am not sure that the mostaly are a literate culture. They will have countless glyphs for certain functions, much like the pictograms we use in public spaces or on our mobile devices, but those are indicators of function rather than a means to relate a story. They will create murals or more likely reliefs recounting important episodes of their history, but IMO much of the software is passed on as oral tradition. (Note that we usually don’t print out source codes any more, either…) Both mostali and constructs are used to store that information. It will likely include incantations that make a mostali or mostali-created mind receptive for verbatim memory of the content.

For a summary: rather than Steampunk, I’d name the mostali technology Etherpunk. Still lots of baroque to gothic ornamentation on their everyday tools and elsewhere, as an expression of the (not quite) individual with its task.

[boztakang]

Just as an illustration, here are a few experimental mostali “weapons” i made up for a scenario I ran recently. I think all the previous comments are very much on-the-spot, but figured a few examples from actual play might be entertaining.

Darkness Grenades – when thrown, these small lead spheres erupt into a large patch of sticky darkness, which blots out all light, extinguishes fires, and creates a large sphere of silence extending approximately five meters from the point of impact. These spheres work reasonably well, the difficulty will be convincing Axesharp of their usefulness to non-trolls.

Hydro-Dermic Generator – a long aluminum needle, which when it pierces the skin of a victim causes their body cavities to fill with water. They will almost certainly drown, if the generator works correctly. There is some danger to the wielder, as the device may not actually need to pierce skin to operate.

Thumper – mechanical pile-driver that can change the density of the earth beneath it. It can turn solid ground into soft dust (effectively quicksand), or soft soil into stone. It works in a (somewhat) adjustable radius around the device, and has a clockwork timer, allowing its operation to be crudely scripted. Requires a fair amount of set-up, and cannot be moved once set in action.

Aerovert Spark-o-Matic – Metal wings which allow one dwarf (or trollkin) sized rider to fly over short distances. Flying generates electricity, which will eventually arc to the ground, hopefully charring enemies, and definitely ending the flight (and possibly the pilot)

Phlogistal Stream Incinitron Device – Flamethrower. This is Fitzzspark’s pride and joy. A long shoulder-carried brass nozzle, attached to a huge wheeled contraption covered in knobs and levers. When used properly, it shoots a jet of searing chemical flame from the nozzle. If it fails or is damaged, it may explode spectacularly.

[Alistair Jones]

A few musings:

Edan, you ask whether there is any actual difference between tech and various magics. I believe the answer has to be a definite maybe. Such difference as there is may well rest solely in the mind of the manipulator.

Robin, I agree absolutely on the uncertainty of origin – depending on the local boogy-man, it may inspire thoughts of Zistorites, EWF, God-Learners in general, Arkat, Nysie etc etc.
After sniffing a gaslight, the Hsunchen may go looking for the flatulent beast that powers it!

Joerg, even if you were to count Mostali as literate, I would assume that this was more a case of numeracy and formulae being used for representation of underlying realities, and with the differing types probably incapable of reading the other’s codings.
I understand your hesitancy with respect to a reliance on elementals, but if the Heortlings don’t even need chimneys due to minor Umbroli….

Boztakang – the Hydro-dermic generator has the potential to become a WMD if the target is already wounded, as the magical device continually refills the leaking void. Valleys could be flooded, fortresses rent by water pressure from within. Verrrrrrry niiiice…

Given the depiction of a Mostali tending a device (memory unclear as to quite which) in Gods of Glorantha, I think we may even be in the realm of Lacepunk.

[Joerg Baumgartner]

Those umbroli are household spirits/godlings worshipped by the family, and probably are kin, too. The mostali are kin to rock rather than earth, and having them all kinds of animated rock or metal do work for them will pass that kinship test. All other use of elementals or spirits will be sorcerous bindings, enslavement. And as with any other slave holder culture, this will rely on a steady source of replacement slaves as the ones currently in use get used up or escape. It will take something of an openhandist stance to trade mostali export items with surface mortals for these, and I tried to be as orthodox as possible with my views above.

Re dwarfen literacy, I think that flow diagrams might be in order. Use of specialized icons (alchemical symbols) will restrict legibility to the caste it involves – gold mostali overseers might be able to read the whole process, but other castes will be able to make sense of their work orders.

Numeracy is an inherited trait, IMO – measuring things appears to be what a lot of non-military devices are shown to do. As a practicing (al)chemist, the value of precise measurements in preparing batches is quite evident to me.

Boztakang’s R&D items come right out of Mostali Paranoia, which is fine for MGF encounters or one-off convention games. I’m still trying to get around Jeff Richard’s challenge to make mostali characters playable. As overheard in western Umathela: “Our plan for Somelz says square plains. Please cooperate in the transformation of this land and queue up for recycling.”

Mostali innovations are a tricky topic. The orthodoxy still hurts from the last major innovation, that of the iron mostali, and innovators often appear to suffer from individualism or openhandism in order to get their experimental material, like that obnoxious Isidilian of Dragon Pass.

Lacepunk is a possibility. IMO mostali go for frills and ornaments wherever they don’t hinder the actual purpose of the item. I wouldn’t be surprised if that lace really was a glassblower’s work rather than textile, though.

[B. Cephalus]

Thank you all for your answers.

Alistair Jones and Robin Mitra: this is a good solution if you see the dwarfs mostly as weird, alien encounters for a party of Orlanthi PCs. But to use them as PCs, or even as recurring NPCs, I think one would need some knowledge of their society – and since technology (in the broad sense of “material culture”) seems to be a relevant part of their society, I was looking for some commonly accepted baseline.

Joerg Baumgartner: thank you, this is exactly the kind of breakdown I was looking for. I agree that their knowledge of clockwork would be closer to the Antikythera Mechanism than to the 16th century clocks.
Also: what’s “Jeff Richard’s challenge to make mostali characters playable”? Does this mean that he’s now working on it, or that he’s looking for ways to make it possible?

Mostali Paranoia is not really what I had in mind; and I would also try not to make them too much similar to the Autochthonians from “Exalted” (another take on a fantasy, dogmatic, hi-tech society). I think I would go for a mix between “subterranean Iron Age society in a Bronze Age world” and “Earth-aspected creatures of Law (or at least their heirs) trying to repair the World Machine”. With your suggestions, I think I have something to start working with.

[Pentallion]

Steam technology would exist and the dwarves would have long ago discovered it. It is simply too easy to magically create a steam engine. In fact, I once ran a campaign in which dwarves used a submarine to attempt to take a shortcut to through Magasta’s Pool in order to take Tora’s Hammer to be destroyed. The submarine was steam powered. Binding enchantments holding salamnders and undines were used by the ships engineer to power the engines by releasing them at the proper rate – controlled by copper tubes and conduits created by the copper dwarves – when these two elementals meet, they destroy each other and the result is steam, which powers the engines.

I think one of my most memorable moments in roleplaying came when I, as the DM, screwed up and realized that the huge tentacled monster that was crushing their submarine was too difficult for them to destroy before it crushed their sub. I sat there thinking, what do I do to rectify this situation when suddenly the Chief Engineer shouts all “Release ALL the Elementals and Vent the Engines! No, ALL of them! All of them NOW!” Some quick calculations as to the steam damage released upon the monster and a die roll of 20 indicating to the head and a loud roar went up from the players as they’d survived.

Naturally, the engines were seriously damaged and the sub sank to the bottom of the ocean floor. Repairs were necessary and breathable air became a major concern. But what’s a submarine adventure without a large tentacled monster and a dead sub at the bottom of the sea?

[Joerg Baumgartner]

I don’t quite recall at which occasion last year, but I was talking with Jeff (and possibly a couple of other people). We talked about playable elder races, and that playing orthodox Mostali in a non-Paranoia style would be extremely difficult. Jeff said something like even aldryami are quite problematic, but mostali nearly unplayable.

Imagine the preparatory recycling workgang entering western Umathela. Their leader (likely a junior gold mostali) has a map showing what features are in the greater plan – basically a blank piece of paper, parchment, metal foil or whatever, with a rectangular outline. He also has a wishlist of material from recycling, listing things like plant matter (including aldryami, dryads and swamp goblins), animal matter (including humans, trolls and other sentients) and capturable energy sources (spirits, local deities or essences). A quicksilver mostali will make test essays on stuff they encounter, categorize it, then have tin mostali package the stuff and carry it off, probably using Slonian slave humans and dinosaurs as beasts of burden. An iron mostali and a number of animated tools (gremlins, possibly jolanti or metal/stone beasts) will provide security.

The workgang approaches a settlement of Umathelans under the woodland protection. The gold mostali will ask the inhabitants to prepare everything for transport, and offer them a position as carriers. Quite likely, the Umathelans will object, again quite likely violently. The gold mostali shrugs, signals the iron mostali, and the mayhem starts.

The problem with this scenario is that it lacks roleplaying opportunities. The gold mostali might listen to the villagers attempt to dissuade him and his workgang from proceeding, then repeat his demands and offers. There is no give. The iron mostali will unleash terrible destruction only heroic characters will be able to withstand. There is hardly any contest, and very little choice.

So, where are the roleplaying opportunities for mostali? One might use the same approach as the Icelandic sagas have for Viking raids – “this summer Hralf took his ship and a number of men and went a-Viking in the Sutherlands and Ireland. In the autumn…” and continue with the domestic conflicts that can be resolved at the Allthing. For the mostali, there could be committee sessions where the plans are formulated and delegated. A workgang is sent out, maybe a simple contest or a group contest is played out, the result is carried back to the committee, and the next step can be planned, and put to action. This might work with an approach similar to the experimental heroquest game Jeff ran last year at Kraken.

As far as I know, Jeff has no plans creating a mostali campaign right now. It is up to our creative efforts to show it can be done in a way that doesn’t go all caricature.

[Joerg Baumgartner]

Re Steam technology:

What a steam engine does is to turn fuel into mechanical force using steel casings and pistons, and various cooling systems. For way too detailed information how to start a steam engine era prematurely, I would point inquiring minds to join Baen’s Bar and search the 1632 Tech discussions.

There is a certain style in having a huge, hissing kettle on the edge of explosive decompression powering whatever motion that gears, levers or drive belts can convey. I suppose that mostali would be able to construct a stationary steam generator that will explode only rarely by encasing it in layers of rock. Making the steam create a useful motion takes piston rods and translations.

However, if you already control the elementals, bind them to the translations directly and let them generate the force. Why go through the effort of evaporating water under pressure if you can couple the energy source more directly to the translation? A sylph can blow a windmill, or a series of windmill arrangements on a single axis resembling a turbine. Likewise an undine can operate a water wheel. To get useful motion out of fire elementals would take more effort, but these entities are eminently useful for smelting ores, glassblowing and mining (alternating heat/cooling will crack off layers of rock almost as nicely as drilled holes with TNT packages, especially when you don’t have to wait for the smoke to leave the hole).

Using steam powered motion for precision instruments like an aeolipile (sp?) may work fine, but anything else can be done with more direct magical applications.

[Harald Smith]

Elementals vs. precision instruments? Take it up with the committee!

[Author]

Posts