Dragonewt Philosophy

[Charles]

I’d like to include the dragonewts in the campaign that I’m currently running (well, starting, more like), but I want to try and make sure that I have a better handle on their philosophy. I would like to portray the dragonewts as being rational creatures that have and obey their own internal logic and that their alien nature arises from the disconnect between that logic and the logic of other races.

With that said, after reading through the material in the KoS and the SC, I have a couple of questions about that philosophy and how it functions.

1. What is the full extent of the philosophy of Right Action? It is suggested in Sartar Companion that a major portion of it is in the avoidance of entanglements with the physical world which take the form of various “debts”. Naturally, this philosophy primarily necessitates disengagement from the affairs of the physical world. But when such is required, the dragonewt must face the prospect of entanglement: a connection or debt with the physical world which retards the spiritual progression of the dragonewt.

2. What, then, is the nature of an entanglement? The books imply that it can be thought of as a kind of debt. But is this debt specific to the individual? For instance, if a dragonewt kills a man, what is the nature of the debt? No man, as the poet says, is an island, and there is now a hole where once a man existed. What of his woman and her children? What of the clan that he fought and farmed for? What of all the men, women, and children who might otherwise have encountered him, been shaped by him, and changed by him? Surely the dragonewt also owes a debt to each and every one of them for removing this man from their lives. Or is it more general: is the debt owed simply by “dragonewts” to “humans” payable “in future” and not by or to the specific individuals concerned?

3. If that is the case, how is such a debt to be repaid? If we were speaking of a cow or a horse it might be more simple: the dragonewt could replace the animal. But in the above case, “a life for a life” isn’t particularly fitting, considering that the value of a dragonewt’s life is very little: death means nothing to them. This implies, then, that there must be some kind of spiritual “currency” or “energy” which generalizes debts in some obscure way which perhaps only the dragonewts comprehend. “Equivalent exchange” comes to mind, but when dealing with such intricate and involved connections, who is to say what is “equivalent” and why.

4. This, in turn, begs the question of why the dragonewts must have such a mechanism for spiritual advancement. The books inform us that through “Right Action” and the repayment of their debts, they hope to eliminate involvement in the physical world and thereby progress into the form of a True Dragon. But this doesn’t really make sense. The dragonewts see the True Dragons as having become totally divorced from the physical world they believe is a deception. But a True Dragon is still part of that world: it has a physical body and even has physical dreams in the form of “Dream Dragons”. How can a True Dragon have no entanglements with the physical world if it is literally part of the world?

5. What do True Dragons “dream” of when they are asleep and in the “real” world of their insensate slumber? Do they dream of nothing – a kind of one-ness which eliminates both the world and the individual, leaving conscious awareness behind as nothing but a bad dream?

Yet if this is the case, that calls into question the whole idea of the long progression of dragonewt from Crested to True Dragon. The spiritual progression of the dragonewt is based around their rebirth upon death: if they become too entangled with the world they take longer to be reborn and eventually begin to regress along their path; if they become dominated by emotions they become “dinosaurs.”

We are told that there are such things as “apostate” dragonewts that reject the path laid out for them. On their death, such individuals simply disappear, going somewhere which none can know. If they cease to exist when their body dies, is this not the same oblivion which the other dragonewts seek by the long and difficult road of their path to purity? Is it not even more profound and complete than what is offered by becoming a True Dragon? If the ultimate goal is to become a True Dragon and achieve oblivion, what then is the reason behind the long and slow evolution towards that goal?

[Roko Joko]

I figure it’s beyond understanding, so I don’t sweat it much. But for more ideas, check out the Mongoose Dragonewt book. Almost-free PDF: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.php?manufacturers_id=4057

[Peter Metcalfe]

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Quote from kaydet on June 3, 2014, 00:44

1. What is the full extent of the philosophy of Right Action? It is suggested in Sartar Companion that a major portion of it is in the avoidance of entanglements with the physical world which take the form of various “debts”.

I don’t think debt is the right word to describe the consequences of entanglements. If I, as a crested dragonewt, heal a man’s leg then to pay off the debt I must show up at some future stage to break it? In my opinion, the debt is an Orlanthi translation referring to their judicial philosophy and that other cultures while studying draconic philosophy might use other terms such as Taboo or Pollution.

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2. What, then, is the nature of an entanglement? The books imply that it can be thought of as a kind of debt. But is this debt specific to the individual? For instance, if a dragonewt kills a man, what is the nature of the debt?

A better way to view it might be that the Dragonewt has caused a death rune action and must extirpate it whether it the performance of a life rune action in order to progress spiritually. The debt is to himself, not the person he has injured.

Another possibility is that actions incurred while acting as a dragonewt should, ie killing in the service of the dragonet, he incurs no entanglement. It is only when he chooses to act for himself or that he executes his orders imperfectly that he creates an entanglement.

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4. […] The dragonewts see the True Dragons as having become totally divorced from the physical world they believe is a deception. But a True Dragon is still part of that world: it has a physical body and even has physical dreams in the form of “Dream Dragons”. How can a True Dragon have no entanglements with the physical world if it is literally part of the world?

I’m not sure where the True Dragons are totally divorced from the physical world comes from. It’s not in the Guide to Glorantha.

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We are told that there are such things as “apostate” dragonewts that reject the path laid out for them. On their death, such individuals simply disappear, going somewhere which none can know. If they cease to exist when their body dies, is this not the same oblivion which the other dragonewts seek by the long and difficult road of their path to purity?

I think a more accurate statement would be that apostate dragonewts become entangled within the world to be reborn as a human or a broo or something horrible.

[Charles]

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Quote from Peter Metcalfe on June 3, 2014, 04:04
I don’t think debt is the right word to describe the consequences of entanglements. If I, as a crested dragonewt, heal a man’s leg then to pay off the debt I must show up at some future stage to break it? In my opinion, the debt is an Orlanthi translation referring to their judicial philosophy and that other cultures while studying draconic philosophy might use other terms such as Taboo or Pollution.

Fair to say. But I wasn’t trying to imply that there was an exact 1:1 relationship, and in fact that was what I was trying to represent as a problem: a repayment in kind is impractical, as you point out. The question then becomes how is that repayment carried out and what scale is used to determine the necessary amount?

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A better way to view it might be that the Dragonewt has caused a death rune action and must extirpate it whether it the performance of a life rune action in order to progress spiritually. The debt is to himself, not the person he has injured.

That makes sense, but they still have to return favors done for them. Is that still something which is owed only to the dragonewt itself? I think maybe the question ultimately boils down to whether the entanglements a dragonewt suffers from are based purely on his own soul without relation to the greater world around him.

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I’m not sure where the True Dragons are totally divorced from the physical world comes from. It’s not in the Guide to Glorantha.

Just speculation on my part, since it seems like the natural progression of the dragonewt philosophy. That’s honestly part of my question, though. Do the dragonewts just want to be True Dragons? –or is there a deeper motivation?

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I think a more accurate statement would be that apostate dragonewts become entangled within the world to be reborn as a human or a broo or something horrible.

So people like Forang Farosh and Laughing Dancer are possibly apostate dragonewts?

[Peter Metcalfe]

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That makes sense, but they still have to return favors done for them. Is that still something which is owed only to the dragonewt itself? I think maybe the question ultimately boils down to whether the entanglements a dragonewt suffers from are based purely on his own soul without relation to the greater world around him.

I think the entanglements are to a large extent abstract ones based on their spirit rather than actual duties to be owned to communities. A dragonewt could discharge an entanglement created in an interaction with one community by performing the appropriate action upon another community.

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Do the dragonewts just want to be True Dragons? –or is there a deeper motivation?

Being a True Dragon is a state of being where all their anxieties and fears of being entangled with the world are gone.

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So people like Forang Farosh and Laughing Dancer are possibly apostate dragonewts?

Forang Farosh and Laughing Dancer are no more apostate than the Kralori are. Which in orthodox dragonewt eyes means they aren’t apostates but they should be.

[Joerg Baumgartner]

I think that a key insight to the behavior of the dragonewts is the nature of their bodies – basically a material projection of the dreaming embryonal dragon. Entanglement in the world means to be trapped in that body rather than returning from the egg.

This is similar to the dream dragons created by sleeping true dragons or powerful draconic magicians (includimg later stage dragonewts) .

Dragonewt skin armor will draw magical energy from the egg, weakening the embryo, hence the urgecy of the newts to regsin and destroy that skin.

Failed dragonewts like dinosaurs or magisaurs will have damaged the egg beyond the ability of rebirth as a dragonewt (let alone a dragon).

[Luc Lavergne]

I cannot remember where I first read about that idea but I’ve always loved it : for dragonewts time would be reversed. I do not think this is canonically true but it still is a great aid when playing them as a gamemaster.

By reversing time perception for dragonewts, you can play them as if consequences were causes and vice-versa. Death can be birth. Gift-giving can become theft. A dragonewt might have known about you before you met him, but when you say goodbye to him he sees you for the first time and then forgets about you forever. They might remember about the next time you’ll meet, but never remember you’ve ever met when this second meeting finally happens.

Maybe all dragonewts are born as tremendously powerful dragons at the end of times and are seeking an escape to this existence by going back to the beginning of godtime, when the world was runes, where they can finally vanish into nothingness and complete the ouroboros cycle. Maybe for dragonewts the EWF is a huge creation exercise where they vomited hundreds of thousands of worshipers into existence. Maybe the red moon is a huge egg created by the mating of 7 great dragons.

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