Divine Magic: Sacrifice and Prayer

[Jeff Richard]

FWIW, in my games, Ernalda cultists treat Humakti as polluted, and they are forbidden from entering into certain sacred spaces (although they often guard the liminal boundaries, they cannot enter the main worship ground), being too near pregnant women, being present at the birth of a child, and so on. Similar limitations exist for BG (although they can guard pregnant women).

[Martin Helsdon]

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on April 22, 2014, 07:44
FWIW, in my games, Ernalda cultists treat Humakti as polluted, and they are forbidden from entering into certain sacred spaces (although they often guard the liminal boundaries, they cannot enter the main worship ground), being too near pregnant women, being present at the birth of a child, and so on. Similar limitations exist for BG (although they can guard pregnant women).

That’s the sort of detail which would be very useful in the Gods book.

[Arkat]

For those Runequesters looking for rules for this sort of thing, check out Pete Nash’s wonderful Blood Magic for Legend. Lots of good stuff on sacrifices, scarification, and exsanguination there. It’s geared towards Swords and Sorcery, but there’s easily enough to provide inspiration for the RQ6 GM until AIG comes out.

[Roko Joko]

Quote:

Quote from Jeff Richard on April 16, 2014, 08:02
Sacrifice and prayer are the defining features of rune magic in Glorantha.

That is not a good statement as written because it neglects the crucial role of emulation, or being.

An important and largely unanswered question about Glorantha is: what does emulation have to do with sacrifice?

One might argue that in the essay I quoted, prayer is a form of emulation. To that, I would counter that the essay doesn’t present it that way, at all. To make that connection, the idea of ritual would have to be elaborated in a different way.

(Some related questions are here – http://www.glorantha.com/forums/glorantha-group1/glorantha-discussions-forum1/working-on-the-gods-of-glorantha-thread127/#postid-905.)

[Jeff Richard]

Sacrifice and prayer enables one communicate with the deity, which then certain religious practices (such as those devoted to the deity or those seeking to serve as an incarnation of the deity’s power) reinforce through emulation. But sacrifice and prayer is the foundation stone.

Whether an Orlanth initiate who is powerful with the Air Rune acts like Orlanth because to do so is necessary to achieve more powerful magic or whether he does so because as he becomes stronger with Air he comes more and more under Orlanth’s influence may be an interesting philosophical question for Malkioni, but is essentially immaterial to the Orlanthi. Those who are powerful in the god’s magic act like the god but even the most powerful devotee of Orlanth performs regular sacrifices and prayers to the god. These are not distinct types of magic, but all part of the same.

[Roko Joko]

Thanks, Jeff. It’s nice that you spend some of your time in discussions here. (Edit: that wording sounds funny. Just to be clear, I meant it sincerely rather than sarcastically.)

I like your answer, but I was also trying to figure out a more conceptual relationship. It puzzled me ever since I read the HQ1 books, where they say that each psychological approach to magic requires a different external form of worship: being and sacrifice, having and ecstatic worship, and knowing and veneration.

I can see how sacrifice, especially combined with prayer, puts the magician in a role of submission or supplication that’s consistent with emulation. That makes sense.

And if you take sacrifice to be more fundamental than emulation, that could explain the idea of less devoted worshipers getting some, weaker magic through sacrifice without necessarily doing a lot of emulation. I like that too.

But I still think of sacrifice as being a little more universal. I envision animism as sometimes being about integration, domination, or possession, but not always. I imagine that sometimes it would be more like a neutral exchange, or a friendly one based on goodwill or favors. It seems like offerings should be a part of that sometimes.

The linkages to ecstatic worship and veneration in HQ1 felt kind of arbitrary too. Mystery is a good thing and there’s no reason these things can’t be mysterious, but so many other things about Glorantha are conceptually compelling that this part of it felt like it needed a firmer grounding.

[Jeff Richard]

Thanks! These forums are also for my benefit, as they give me a chance to see what stuff I really need to think through carefully in future materials! A few quick thoughts (just woke up so they lack the benefit of a few cups of coffee):

Rune Magic: You establish a connection to the god through sacrifice and prayer, and the god lends you a part of its power (but to wield that power effectively requires emulation).

Spirit Magic: You establish a connection to the sports through ecstatic ceremonies that please the spirits. This is not the same as sacrifice and prayer, but more of a religious “jazz ceremony”, even if it may share some elements. Spirits are persuaded to enter charms, which each have taboos imposed upon them by the spirits. More powerful or hostile spirits are communicated with by shamans, who can command very powerful spirits without any emulation in the slightest.

Sorcery: Pure intellect and logic; magic is created by direct manipulation of the Runes. The most hard-core practitioners of sorcery (the Brithini and the mortal zzaburi) eschew any sort of worship of anything less than the Invisible God (the One, the Creator, whatever); however, most people add some rune magic and spirit magic to the mix (except in those areas where such subjugation to otherworld entities have been prohibited by the zzaburi). A half-way house tolerated by many zzaburi is the worship of Heroes (the Ascended Masters).

[Charles]

Just to make it interesting: there’s suggestions in some books in the Stafford Library that Orlanthi worship does not fit the original theistic template but has mixed with the nearby spiritist approach that is prevalent in Prax. The mix gives the Orlanthi a much more personalized relationship with their gods while the Dara Happans have a more distant relationship mediated by their hereditary priests. And so the Dara Happan are closer to the original theistic model.

[Roko Joko]

I’ve certainly heard stuff like “Most Sartarites are initiates because that is their custom, and most Pelorians are not, because that is their custom” (http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/heroquest-rules/2005.02/20736.html), but attributing the former partly to a Praxian animist influence doesn’t ring a bell. Do you remember any references for that?

Also, can you explain what you mean by “the original theist template/model”? I can’t tell whether you’re referring to (say) the concept of Glorantha theism presented in the RQ2 era, or historical Greek polytheism, or what.

[Scott Martin]

Quote:

Quote from Charles Corrigan on May 29, 2014, 12:06
Just to make it interesting: there’s suggestions in some books in the Stafford Library that Orlanthi worship does not fit the original theistic template but has mixed with the nearby spiritist approach that is prevalent in Prax. The mix gives the Orlanthi a much more personalized relationship with their gods while the Dara Happans have a more distant relationship mediated by their hereditary priests. And so the Dara Happan are closer to the original theistic model.

Love this, especially in the context of weird atavistic Kolati / Vadrudi / Umathing / Larnsting shamanism we see here and there. The storm people tend to be closer to that stratum of things.

At this point it raises the question of who “if anyone” in Glorantha today fits the conventional theistic model. Whoever they are, their relationship with the divine is more or less limited to the sacrificial do ut des (I give something to you the god in order to get you the god to give something to me) and expressed through prayer, with minimal influence from the other relational approaches we’ve seen over the years (integration / reduction / refutation, etc.)

So who were the God Learners looking at when they made the model of how things work in the northern quadrant? Maybe not the Orlanthi. Maybe not the Pelorians either.

Does that culture even still exist?

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